Do I Qualify with an Istrian grandfather?

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

Moderator: Daniel

Do I Qualify with an Istrian grandfather?

Postby frankv » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:08 pm

Hello!

My Grandfather was naturalized in the US in 1946, my father was born in the US in 1940.

So far So Good.

On his US naturalization document they list his nationality as 'Italian', and when he served in the US merchant marine in WWII he was listed on the roll as 'Italian national'.

He even served in the Italian merchant marine in the 1920-30's :)

Heck, I always thought we were Italian!
But....
I have recieved a copy of his birth document from 1903, but as Istria is now Croatia it's a document from Croatia!

Anyone have any idea if an Istrian Ancestry will qualify?

thanks!
Frank
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby frankv » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:27 pm

OK..did a bit of research and came up with the following:

If your ancestor was born in the following regions: Veneto, Friuli V.Giulia, Trentino, to apply for the italian citizenship you need to prove that He/She left Italy after July 16th 1920 according to LEGGE 379, 14 DICEMBRE 2000

http://gazzette.comune.jesi.an.it/2000/295/1.htm

Now... I know he was in the Italian Merchant Marine at least until 1925..
And I'm also sure he did'nt get to America until the Mid 1930's..He was naturlaized in 1946 as I mentioned.

Any ideas on how I can prove that he left Italy after 1920?

I have Pictures of him on 2 boats.. the 'Calabria' in 1923, and the 'Ellenia' out of Trieste in 1925.

Can I get his Italian Merchant Marine Records?

Appreciate any help!

Thanks!
Frank
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby sugo » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:03 am

You can try the Ellis Island website http://www.ellisisland.org and see if they show the date he arrived.

His naturalization paperwork (Entry Card, Declaration of Intention and Petition for Naturalization) will also show his date of arrival in the US. You can get these from your regional National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) http://www.archives.gov or from the United States Citizenship and Immigration Service (USCIS).
sugo
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:56 pm

Postby frankv » Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:08 am

Sugo,
Thanks for the reply.

He did not come into this country thru Ellis Island..In fact we believe he 'jumped ship' prior to WWII.. possibly in 1936 or so.
I did check the Ellis Website as well. not there.

I ordered his Naturalization papers online..will they send the petition as well as the naturalization document? or just the Naturalization document?

I have the original from 1946... All it states is his country was 'Italy'.

Thanks again! This Site is EXTREMELY helpful!

Frank
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 17, 2007 11:36 am

frankv wrote:If your ancestor was born in the following regions: Veneto, Friuli V.Giulia, Trentino, to apply for the italian citizenship you need to prove that He/She left Italy after July 16th 1920 according to LEGGE 379, 14 DICEMBRE 2000


But this doesn't cover Istria does it? To be honest, I've heard your question a few times before, but I don't want to mislead you so I haven't responded. I really so hope it goes well though and maybe something will be unearthed that will help us all to understand what happens in cases such as this.

I did find these links: http://www.drcar-murko.si/en/vsebina.php?id=72
The law was presented as Italy’s moral duty to several tens of thousands of people in Slovenia and Croatia who were Italian citizens up to 10 June 1940, and to their heirs. It has a routine title, but this conceals an alarming content: Amendments to Act No 91 of 1992 relating to the conditions under which compatriots from Istria, Rijeka and Dalmatia and their heirs may be granted Italian citizenship.

This amendment – a supplement to Article 17 of the 1992 law on citizenship – is extremely unusual. The persons entitled to request Italian citizenship are those who in 1947 and 1975, under Article 19 of the Treaty of Paris and Article 3 of the Treaty of Osimo, did not exercise the right to opt for Italy. The two peace treaties provided that in territories where sovereignty was transferred from Italy to Yugoslavia, the residents would automatically become citizens of the country that acquired sovereignty, unless within a specific deadline (one year after the entry into force of the treaty) they selected citizenship of the other country, in other words they opted for that.

At the crux of the law we can therefore only gape. To persons in the present territories of Slovenia and Croatia who in the past did not take the option, in other words who did not exercise the right offered, Italy is now in a simplified procedure unilaterally offering the chance to opt again!


http://vijesti.hrt.hr/vijesti/ShowArtic ... cleId=5945
ITALIAN MINORITY GRANTED RIGHT TO ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP

Members of the Italian minority in Croatia and Slovenia and their descendants have been granted the right to acquire Italian citizenship in line with the amended act on Italian citizenship, which was adopted last mid-year by the Parliament Deputies, and verified today by the Senate's committee one day prior to Parliament's dissolution before the elections. Minister in charge of the relations with the Parliament Carlo Giovanardi said that it was «a happy coincidence» that the adoption of the act took place on 10th February, when Italy marks Remembrance Day of the victims of Foibe. In his statement Giovanardi stresses that the act had to be adopted because of «the Italian autochthonous minority that has been waiting for quite some time to be recognized by their original homeland». «The Italians living in Istria, Dalmatia and Rijeka will now be able to better protect their national identity within the context of a sincere friendship and collaboration with Croatia and Slovenia, on whose territory they live, and which territory definitely belongs to them within the scope of the future common house – Europe», says the statement.


That page above was published in 2006, so it looks like this right has been reissued and is fairly recent. It looks like you are in luck that is has been introduced into law now. I think this bodes in your favor, but no one I know has put it to the test. Maybe you can help us out by being the first known?
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Postby frankv » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:25 pm

Tiffany: thanks for the Information!


I copied and pasted the initial statement BTW..and you're correct, they did leave out Istria.

But in the original document cited, http://gazzette.comune.jesi.an.it/2000/295/1.htm , I found this:

"Art. 1.

1. La presente legge si applica alle persone di cui al comma 2, originarie dei territori che sono appartenuti all'Impero austro-ungarico prima del 16 luglio 1920, e ai loro discendenti. I territori di cui al presente comma comprendono:

a) i territori attualmente appartenenti allo Stato italiano;

b) i territori gia' italiani ceduti alla Jugoslavia in forza:

1) del trattato di pace fra l'Italia e le Potenze alleate ed associate, firmato a Parigi il 10 febbraio 1947 e reso esecutivo in Italia con decreto legislativo del Capo provvisorio dello Stato 28 novembre 1947, n. 1430;

2) del trattato tra la Repubblica italiana e la Repubblica socialista federativa di Jugoslavia firmato ad Osimo il 10 novembre 1975, ratificato e reso esecutivo in Italia ai sensi della legge 14 marzo 1977, n. 73.

2. Alle persone nate e gia' residenti nei territori di cui al comma 1 ed emigrate all'estero, ad esclusione dell'attuale Repubblica austriaca, prima del 16 luglio 1920, nonche' ai loro discendenti, e' riconosciuta la cittadinanza italiana qualora rendano una dichiarazione in tal senso con le modalita' di cui all'articolo 23 della legge 5 febbraio 1992, n. 91, entro cinque anni dalla data di entrata in vigore della presente legge.

3. E' abrogato l'articolo 18 della legge 5 febbraio 1992, n. 91."


From what I can gather from this it means if you were born in the former Austro-Hungarian Empire, (as did my grandfather coming from Rovigno), that were ceded to Italy Post WWI, and you did not leave those lands until after July 16, 1920, then the claim for Italian citizenship can be made.

Does this mean I need to find documented proof that my Grandfather did not leave Italy prior to July 16, 1920..such as his merchant marine records or a census?
Or will his US naturaliztion papers suffice...as it was mentioned that the petition for citizenship should show his arrival date?

Thanks again for the help folks!

If you do not mind the bandwidth I will keep you all updated on my progress and results!

Frank
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:40 pm

We do not mind at all. I am confused though. I thought you said his birth record showed that he was born in Istria... Where is Rovigno and why was he there? I might be confused about geography...

If you can follow the rule that people born in the Austro-Hungarian empire could not have left until July 16, 1920, yes you will have to prove that is the case. It does not matter how you prove it, but the record has to be official. Depending on what consulate you go through, most won't accept the census (exception SF consulate). Showing his arrival date will work for you if it can be assumed that he was not anywhere but Italy before that date.
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Postby frankv » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:48 pm

Thanks again Tiffany!

sorry for the confusion :)

Rovigno is in Istria...it is now called Rovinj...When he was born, 1903 it was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire..until post WWI..then it became part of Italy, until post WWII..when it went to Yugoslavia, then Croatia.

That's why his Birth Certificate is from Croatia :)

No natter where he was born, He was Italian...Spoke the most perfect beautiful Italian you could hear...especially compared to the dialects you get used to hearing growing up in Brooklyn;)

Funghi??? What the heck is Funghi?? Ohh! you mean Funj! :lol:


Looks like I'll be trying for his Italian Merchant Marine Records..
Any ideas on where to start?
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:54 pm

No clue there, I'm sorry. I'll take a look later though. There is a sizeable Italian minority in Croatia, so I do not doubt it at all. Are you sure it could not be proved that he came to the US after 1920, via Italy? Or is there no record that states where he sailed from?
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Postby frankv » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:59 pm

Tiffany:

There is no US Immigration document showing his arrival..such as a Ship Registry or Immigration document.
And my father told me my grandfather 'jumped ship' prior to WWII in Philadelphia so as not to serve in WWII under the Axis.

The only documents that I can find on say the ancestry.com website are his WWII US Merchant Marine records.

When I recieve his petition for naturalization maybe that will offer some information as to his arrival.

again, Thanks!
Frank
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 17, 2007 2:04 pm

Keep us posted! By the way, those WW2 Maritime Records sound Official. Can you order certified copies from Ancestry.com?
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Postby frankv » Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:08 pm

OK... Here's the status so far:)

I've written to Rome for his military records... BTW..Great site with info on the process here:
http://www.regiamarina.it/research.htm

I've also sent a letter to the Trieste Comune for his residence records from this period..we think he was living in Trieste from around 1920-1930.

Also, interesting info just in...My Aunt informs us that she remembers my Grandfather having to go into Canada and come back to the US after WWII to 'show his arrival into the US' for his Naturalization...now to find those records!

Thanks for all of the help folks!
Frank
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby frankv » Sun Jun 03, 2007 1:19 am

Update:
recieved a letter from the Commune of Trieste.
My grandfather and his family are shown to have moved to Trieste in 1916, and they have records of my grandfather living in Trieste from 1916-1925, after this time there are no records of him in Trieste.
This works out perfectly as his petition for naturalization to the US has him entering the country in 1926, his naturalization date is 1946, my father was born in 1940.
BTW: sent an international postal coupon with my request, and recieved the document, plus the reply coupon back! I had a 1000% positive experience dealing with Trieste!
Now to get the required apostilles and I'll call the NYC consulate for an appointment!
Frank
frankv
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:48 pm

Postby penguindump » Sun Jun 03, 2007 9:20 am

Dang, I wish Monopoli was that awesome... They have been moving their records for at least 6 months now, and they are "impossible to obtain." **** too, because my appointment in SF is on Wednesday; and I ordered these from ICGS nearly 2 years ago. I guess if they would have searched when I ordered them, I would have them ready. At least they gave me a partial refund.......

USCIS has sent me naturalization records for the wrong individual, and they do in fact show the date of arrival, and the ship name even.
penguindump
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:34 am
Location: Bay Area, CA

Postby Em » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:25 am

FrankV, congratulations. When I first read your post, I wondered how you would ever manage to obtain all the documentation you'd need to prove that your grandfather was Italian. But you did it--wonderful! The rest should be easy.

Penguindump, don't be discouraged. It will work out for you too. Maybe the SF consulate will allow you to submit the documentation you already have and mail them the rest when it comes in. This way you would not have to schedule another appointment. Good luck.
User avatar
Em
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:57 am

Next

Return to Qualifying

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests