Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Tiffany » Mon May 04, 2009 3:27 pm

I think we've covered it all! Yay!
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:20 pm

Just curious: Prior to 1912, what would have happened to the citizenship of an Italian child, born and living in Italy, when his father naturalized in the U.S.? In this case, let us say the father abandons the family, and the wife and children never had any ideas on moving to the U.S. Based on the current interpretation, they are U.S. citizens and no longer Italians, regardless of whether they will ever set foot on U.S. soil? Would the Italian government have deported them even though they never wanted to be Americans? In other words, here is an example where automatic familial renunciation of Italian citizenship, as instigated by their estranged father's naturalization, would be nonsensical.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:39 pm

zagnut wrote:
antonio64 wrote:I've been reading this thread over and over, and I'm confused about the "San Francisco interpretation" of the 1912 law as it applies to minors born in the U.S.

It is confusing. People are referring to the pre-1912 norm (of children born in the US with jus solis citizenship losing their Italian citizenship when their father naturalizes in the US) as "the 1912 law." But the 1912 law actually ended the pre-1912 norm from that point on. I believe the complaint with the 1912 law is that it wasn't explicitly retroactive.


Was it explicitly non-retroactive?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby antonio64 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 5:35 am

No, the 1912 law wasn't specifically non-retroactive. It just wasn't explicitly retroactive either. At the moment, most Italian consular officers are treating it as if it was retroactive.

Just to clarify: to treat it as non-retroactive would be to say that a child born abroad to an Italian father before passage of the 1912 law would forever be covered by the previous rules and would lose their Italian citizenship whenever their father naturalized. This not the present interpretation. The present interpretation is that the 1912 law capped the date at which a father's naturalization affected the citizenship of their foreign-born child. So at present, any child who was entitled to Italian citizenship under the laws in force on June 13, 1912 retained their eligibility after that date regardless of any change in their father's citizenship. That was the main purpose of the 1912 law.

With regard to your other question, concerning a child born on Italian soil whose father abandoned him and later became a naturalized U.S. citizen, he (the child) would presumably be able to claim Italian citizenship jus soli (by right of ground/by birth). The 1912 law was mainly concerned with the rights of children born overseas to Italian parents. If the child was born in Italy and lived there all his life (and, presumably, was on record with his local commune) no one would have had much interest in questioning his citizenship at the time. And regardless of his personal status, any children of his that were born on Italian soil would themselves be Italians jus soli.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:26 am

antonio64 wrote:Just to clarify: to treat it as non-retroactive would be to say that a child born abroad to an Italian father before passage of the 1912 law would forever be covered by the previous rules and would lose their Italian citizenship whenever their father naturalized. This not the present interpretation. The present interpretation is that the 1912 law capped the date at which a father's naturalization affected the citizenship of their foreign-born child. So at present, any child who was entitled to Italian citizenship under the laws in force on June 13, 1912 retained their eligibility after that date regardless of any change in their father's citizenship. That was the main purpose of the 1912 law.

Not necessarily. See this: http://expattalk.com/groupee/forums/a/t ... /696105941
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 9:50 am

With regard to your other question, concerning a child born on Italian soil whose father abandoned him and later became a naturalized U.S. citizen, he (the child) would presumably be able to claim Italian citizenship jus soli (by right of ground/by birth). The 1912 law was mainly concerned with the rights of children born overseas to Italian parents. If the child was born in Italy and lived there all his life (and, presumably, was on record with his local commune) no one would have had much interest in questioning his citizenship at the time. And regardless of his personal status, any children of his that were born on Italian soil would themselves be Italians jus soli.


So Italy is/was also a jus soli country?

So consular officers/jurisdictions to avoid in this situation are? Has anybody made an up-to-date list that other can use as a reference?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:45 am

Actually, I don't believe that Italy was ever a jus soli country. (Zagnut reports that Italian Codice Civile of 1865 established jure sanguinis as the method of establishing citizenship.) Those children born in Italy of Italian parents obtained citizenship jure sanguinis. With the major exodus in the late nineteenth century, it was necessary to establish the specifics for those Italians no longer residing in Italy. Today the interpretation of that law seems to vary by consulate.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby ZEROOTTO » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:44 pm

I created this original post back in 2007 when I discovered that San Francisco would not allow me to apply for dual-citizenship based on the "1912 rule". After many years of wishing and hoping, and then researching and applying, I am happy to announce that I am an Italian citizen. For those of you wondering if you can apply in Italy and avoid the 1912 naturalization ruling, the answer is yes, but it is not an easy process and I would never have been able to do it without the help of my Italian relatives and a 6 month job assignment in Italy that gave me the time I needed to complete the process.
I went to Italy in June 2012 for my cousin's wedding and applied in their city in Tuscany even though my original relatives (from my Mother's side) were from Sicily. If the directions on translations and other thing for clearer I probably would have been able to complete the process in the month that I was there, but only because my uncle knew some of the people who sped up the process. I was lucky to be sent back to Italy on an assignment just 4 weeks later so my cousins were able to complete many of the steps, while I was working much further south in Italy, before Christmas. Everything we did was perfectly legal, but done faster, and my uncle allowed claimed me as a resident at his house, which can bring tax implications. Fortunately for me, my uncle makes already pays the maximum per household, otherwise my earnings in Italy would have been taxed to the house.
The actual process for obtaining dual-citizenship in Italy is well detailed on other posts, but so many unexpected "requirements" were presented to us, so it is safe to say that the actual steps required will be different for every person who is able to apply in Italy. The one process that derailed me for a couple of months was a requirement to have all English translations (which I had completed in America by someone approved by the S.F. consulate many years ago) verified by one of only 3 qualified people in that area of Italy. It just so happened that one of the people was my cousin's old English teacher, so after months of searching for the actual names, and how to find the people, it was completed in one day, and for free. If I was to do it all over again, I would have had the English translations done in Italy.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby fig1 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:25 pm

Yes, it seems you're at a dead end. But one consulate may be less strict than another. My ancestor never naturalized, and as a result my citizenship was recognized back in 2009. Where there's a will, there's a way. Best of luck.
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