Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby ZEROOTTO » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:04 am

I was well on my way to obtaining all of the necessary documents for dual citizenship when I stumbled upon the following bit of information: "ANCESTORS NATURALIZED BEFORE JUNE 14, 1912 CANNOT TRANSMIT CITIZENSHIP (EVEN TO CHILDREN BORN BEFORE THEIR NATURALIZATION)"
Unfortunately my great grandfather was naturalized in December of 1911. Why this date? Am I out of luck?
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Postby Em » Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:36 pm

I think this occurs because the Italian law defining citizenship in terms of jure sanguinis was passed in 1912.

I don't know how consulates look at your situation.
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Postby ZEROOTTO » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:25 pm

Thank you for the reply.

I live in Seattle, so I assume that I am obligated to apply to the consulate in San Francisco (since it seems that some have different requirements). The SF consolate website doesn't have any of the information regarding this date, but I found a file from a Google search from the SF consolate that does indeed contain this information.

Is this a new ruling?
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Postby Em » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:52 pm

I don't think so, but I'm certainly no expert. Since the law establishing Italian citizenship jure sanguinis began in 1912, the interpretation seems to be that jure sanguinis itself began in 1912.

It's much like the 1948 ruling. In 1948 women were given the right to pass on citizenship to their children, but even though the law changed, it wasn't retroactive to include those children born before that date.

The same thing applies with the dual citizenship law of 1992. It, too, was not applied retroactively (although they did provide a five-year window for those who wished to reacquire their citizenship).

Dates are significant in many ways in this jure sanguinis process.

Is their another path through which you might qualify?
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Postby ZEROOTTO » Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:19 pm

I received the naturalization papers yesteday, and my great grandfather was naturalized on March 18, 1912. What bad luck!

I am not going to give up, though. I have read on this board that other consulates may not recognize this requirement. If this is true than it may not be a requirement for applying in Italy, which may be another option.

Thank you for your help!
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Postby nfig1 » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:01 pm

ZEROOTTO wrote:I received the naturalization papers yesteday, and my great grandfather was naturalized on March 18, 1912. What bad luck!

I am not going to give up, though. I have read on this board that other consulates may not recognize this requirement. If this is true than it may not be a requirement for applying in Italy, which may be another option.

Thank you for your help!


ZEROOTTO, I may end up with the same issue as you.
Last edited by nfig1 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Em » Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:35 am

I agree with someday. The rule is arbitrary. Several posts indicate that this date was an issue in SF (I didn't know about Chicago), but I've not heard mention of it being an issue at any other consulate. If you can apply elsewhere, it may be worth your time to check it out.

You would have to show a different residence, of course. Perhaps some relatives can help out.
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Postby fubarbloke » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:45 pm

It is indeed an issue at the SF consulate -- the timing of my Italian ancestor's naturalization was a point of concern during my interview there.

It's not arbitrary -- it's an interpretation of the citizenship law that went into effect in Italy in 1912. It would be a good thing for some applicants if other consulates saw it differently, but I'd be surprised if that was the case. The SF consulate's website mentions it, I think, because the SF consulate has posted particularly thorough instructions.
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Postby Em » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:26 pm

Did they then deny your application based on that ruling? If so, I'm truly sorry.

Perhaps "arbitrary" is not the right word. It is a legitimate interpretation of Italian citizenship law. I think, though, that it has not been an issue in other consulates either because this aspect of the law has been ignored or the consular officials have been unaware of it.

It would be helpful if those who have ancestors who naturalized before 1912 would post their experiences with the various consulates.
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Postby ZEROOTTO » Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:32 pm

nfig1,
I have given up on applying for dual-citizenship through the SF consulate and I am attempting to apply directly in Italy. My relatives there have spoken with the comune and were told that I qualify. I travel to Italy fairly often for work so I will pursue it further on my next visit.

I'll update the post when I have more information.
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Postby nfig1 » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:27 pm

Update:

I have spoken over the phone with the L.A., Boston, and NYC consulates. They didn't know about the law but expressed concern about not knowing about it because of the its obvious implications. L.A. got back to me after doing some research and said the law is real, but unposted because it is rare that the law becomes an issue. My advice at this point is that if you don't make the cut-off date with the law, consult an attorney: it's better to spend $500 on one and make sure you know the law than to go through the entire process spending twice as much on all the paperwork and perhaps months of your time only to find out you don't qualify. The consulates just don't seem to be any real help on this one, unfortunately.

P.S. Thanks ZEROOTTO for the update.
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Postby nfig1 » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:45 pm

I finally heard back from S.F. Here is my e-mail and their reply.

I have a question pertaining to the June 14, 1912 “Jure Sanguinis” law that can be found only on the websites of the San Francisco and Chicago consulates. It appears to be open to interpretation and subject to jurisdiction. That is to say, some qualify and others do not depending on jurisdiction. For example, if I lived in New York, I would qualify, but if I lived in San Francisco, I would fall under the 1912 law and not qualify for citizenship. Can you please explain the reason for this discrepancy among consulates?

We cannot tell other consulates what to put on their website. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Italy has confirmed that our statement concerning the 1912 law is correct, and that is the law we follow.

- Anna Maria Stone/Citizenship Department/Consulate General of Italy San Francisco
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Postby Em » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:43 pm

Quote by Tolly: "1912 is a cut-off date at the San Francisco Consulate because naturalization records prior to 1912 were lost in the great earthquake."

That is an unwarranted assumption. The position of the SF Consulate has absolutely nothing to do with the earthquake and everything to do with Italian law. Remember that the SF consulate does not deal with applications from people whose ancestors come from SF; they deal with applicants who NOW live within their jurisdiction, who may or may not be submitting SF-issued documents. Read the posted response by Anna Marie Stone.
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Postby peggymckee » Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:47 pm

tolly wrote:1912 is a cut-off date at the San Francisco Consulate because naturalization records prior to 1912 were lost in the great earthquake.
The Great Earthquake was in 1906.
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/regional/nca ... /index.php
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Postby David_ » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:09 pm

nfig1 wrote:Update:

I have spoken over the phone with the L.A., Boston, and NYC consulates. They didn't know about the law but expressed concern about not knowing about it because of the its obvious implications. L.A. got back to me after doing some research and said the law is real, but unposted because it is rare that the law becomes an issue. My advice at this point is that if you don't make the cut-off date with the law, consult an attorney: it's better to spend $500 on one and make sure you know the law than to go through the entire process spending twice as much on all the paperwork and perhaps months of your time only to find out you don't qualify. The consulates just don't seem to be any real help on this one, unfortunately.

P.S. Thanks ZEROOTTO for the update.

LOL good job alerting LA, Boston and NYC. Now dozens of applications may be rejected thanks to you.
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