Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby DoreenJoy » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:39 pm

Nicola wrote:S T R I P P E D gets starred out? ****?



Yes, because that word would be used in a lot of p*rn spam.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:42 pm

DoreenJoy wrote:This analogy between the 1948 law and the 1912 law makes the most sense to me. If I wanted to apply through my mother's (b. 1936) mother, I clearly have no jure sanguinis because of the pre-1948 law. It seems clear that some of the consulates are interpreting the 1912 law in the same way. The changing of these laws is currently not retroactive.

I also noticed a post saying that Argentina and the SF consulate use the same interpretation of the 1912 law. Since the new CG in San Francisco came from Argentina, I wonder if he brought his interpretation of the 1912 law with him to SF?


No, it was in place long before he arrived (I dealt with the previous administration too). I'm not sure when came into place at the SF consulate or with who.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby DoreenJoy » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:10 pm

Tiffany wrote:No, it was in place long before he arrived (I dealt with the previous administration too). I'm not sure when came into place at the SF consulate or with who.


Thanks for the info. I guess for now, anyone whose ancestor naturalized pre-1912 is probably best off not bringing it up and seeing if their consulate is one of the sticklers.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:12 pm

That makes the most sense. In this case, lack of consistency among the consulates may actually be a good thing.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:15 pm

So SF and NY are the consulates who do it? Or was Chicago one as well?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:45 pm

I think Chicago follows the SF interpretation. As far as I know, NY does not.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:55 pm

I was looking at this:
nfig1 wrote:I recently heard from a reliable source that someone got turned down at the NY consulate because his GGGF had naturalized in 1910, despite this being 25 years after the birth of his son.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby antonio64 » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:02 am

I've been reading this thread over and over, and I'm confused about the "San Francisco interpretation" of the 1912 law as it applies to minors born in the U.S. So let me just ask this:

My great grandfather was born in Italy in 1885 and emigrated to the United States in 1899. He became a naturalized U.S. citizen in 1914. His son -- my grandfather -- was born in the United States in 1905. He was twelve when his father naturalized, but since he had been born in the U.S. he was already a U.S. citizen. (He never formally claimed or renounced Italian citizenship during his lifetime.)

Under the current "San Francisco interpretation," would my grandfather be considered an Italian citizen? Or would he be denied because either (A) he was born outside of Italy (albeit to Italian citizen parents) in 1905 before passage of the 1912 nationality law, or (B) he involuntarily lost his Italian nationality when his father naturalized in 1914 while he was still a minor (even though he was already an American by birth)?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Tiffany » Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:55 am

You would qualify since your GGF naturalized after September 14th, 1912. If your GGF had naturalized before then, SF would say your GGF's loss of Italian citizenship applied to the whole family because in that period of time, Italy said what happened to the father, happened to the entire family (as they were all dependent on his status and seen as his property [excluding overage children]).
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:19 am

antonio64 wrote:I've been reading this thread over and over, and I'm confused about the "San Francisco interpretation" of the 1912 law as it applies to minors born in the U.S.

It is confusing. People are referring to the pre-1912 norm (of children born in the US with jus solis citizenship losing their Italian citizenship when their father naturalizes in the US) as "the 1912 law." But the 1912 law actually ended the pre-1912 norm from that point on. I believe the complaint with the 1912 law is that it wasn't explicitly retroactive.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:17 am

Unfortunately, so many of Italy's liberalizing citizenship laws were not retroactive (1948 and 1992 included). Italy is not unique in this, however.

I'm not certain, zagnut, about New York since 1912 was not an issue with my application. As far as I know, however, it has not been applied, and until someone directly affected by the ruling reports being turned away, I would still consider New York to be a possibility. The problem is, of course, that there is no way to ask this question without opening up a can of worms.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:27 am

Agreed Em. I notice the quote mentions the child would have been 25 years old when the father naturalized, so the story doesn't make sense under the pre-1912 norm anyway. Maybe the reliable source left out some details?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:50 am

Here is what I promised to post so everyone is clear on SF's interpretation of the 1912 law: We’ve based it on the law governing Italian citizenship and on the instructions supplied by the Ministry of the Interior, which state what we have posted on our website. The law giving people born abroad to Italian parents who had not naturalized as US citizens came into effect in 1912.(??) Before then Italian citizenship could not be transmitted simply by being born abroad to an Italian father; the parent had to maintain Italilan citizenship until the child became an adult.(!) This changed in 1912, but does not govern previous situations.

I think Mrs. Stone made a concerted effort to answer the question. It seems she is saying that as long as the U.S.-born ancestor was an adult by the time the immigrant father naturalized, it doesn't matter whether it was before 1912 (I noted this with an exclamation point in her answer). It also appears she intends that to be Italian, a child could only be born in Italy to an Italian father before the 1912 law was passed, which runs contrary to the 1865 jus sanguinis doctrine that birth to an Italian father is all that mattered (a doctrine established in part to accommodate the large Italian diaspora after unification that Italy was trying to include, not exclude) and contrary her next sentence that a foreign-born child could automatically become Italian upon his 18th birthday if the father had not yet naturalized. With that, then the June 14, 1912 date is not the ultimate cut-off. It means that if a child were born in the U.S. in 1882, for example, the father could have naturalized in 1900, after the child's 18th birthday and leave the child's Italian citizenship intact, despite this being before 1912. This all seems clear to me, but I would enjoy hearing the opinions of the experts.
Last edited by nfig1 on Tue Apr 28, 2009 4:10 am, edited 13 times in total.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:10 am

She is citing the Ministry of Interior guidance:
In buona sostanza, per la legge 555\1912, risultava rilevante che al momento della nascita sul territorio di uno Stato che attribuisse la cittadinanza secondo il principio dello ius soli, il soggetto (che deteneva anche la cittadinanza straniera per essere nato sul territorio di quello Stato) avesse il padre cittadino italiano. Se poi il padre fosse incorso nella perdita della cittadinanza italiana (ad esempio per naturalizzazione straniera), il figlio avrebbe comunque conservato lo status civitatis italiano.

Fino al 1912, invece, la perdita di cittadinanza del padre comportava in ogni caso la perdita della cittadinanza per il figlio minorenne.

I don't know how that could be more clear.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 2:38 am

Reread the last part in bold which pertains to minor children: Anna Maria's interpretation and analysis are the same.

Thus, a child born in 1882, could in fact gain his patrimonial Italian citizenship upon attaining adulthood (at his 18th birthday one would assume) if the father had not yet naturalized, regardless of it being before 1912. The adult son would then keep this citizenship thereafter regardless of whether his father were to later naturalize; as a major, the son is deemed a free Italian citizen separate from his father. Nevertheless, minor children born in a jus soli country whose father naturalized prior to 1912 could not derive Italian citizenship at 18.

I am happy with this interpretation, since it is logical. All this considered, the law still runs contrary to the 1865 doctrine of jus sanguinis in my opinion: Birth soil does not an Italian citizen make; it is the blood of an Italian father that does.
Last edited by nfig1 on Tue Apr 28, 2009 3:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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