Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:26 pm

nfig1 wrote:
zagnut wrote:
As I mentioned, this makes sense, given the 1901 Italian emigration law says descendents already born also lost Italian citizenship along with their father when he naturalized. 1901-1912 naturalizations would be subject to the 1901 law.


Well, this must apply to Italian minor children who emigrated with their father. Children born in the US (jus soli) to an Italian father cannot naturalize with him as they are already US citizens. Therefore, since they cannot naturalize, the only way for them to lose their blood right to Italian citizenship is to renounce it at adulthood. I repeat, the SF consulate's view of the Art. 7 of the 1912 law goes against the essence of what is jus sanguinis. Such an illogical and whimsical reading of the Article can no longer be permitted, and something must be done to reverse it.

I share your sentiments because, in effect, the American child of an Italian is subject to naturalization papers that do not pertain to him. Essentially, Zagnut is saying that it's not the 1912 law that is at issue, but the 1901 law which was in effect until 1912, when Article 7 was applied. Under this law, when the father naturalized and renounced citizenship, his American-born children did not naturalize with him but were still subject to the father's renunciation. It would be helpful to have a copy of that law.

I wonder what the interpretation would be if an Italian man came to the U.S. and naturalized in 1911, when his child was 22 years old. I suspect that in such a case the father's naturalization would not affect the son since, as an adult, he would be able to make his own renunciation if he chose to do so.

I wonder, too, what the interpretation would be for an American child of an Italian man who naturalized in 1900.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:33 pm

zagnut wrote:I see nothing in Article 7 of 1912 law affecting pre-1912 cases. It only affects post-1912 cases.


I agree 100% with the first part of your statement; however, since Art. 7 neither restricts nor broadens jus sanguinis, I believe it has no effect on citizenship by descent at all. It only casts light on the 1865 code. The one law that substantially affects jus sanguinis is the one from 1948 which broadens the law, granting citizenship transmission thereafter to women.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:38 pm

Children born in the US (jus soli) to an Italian father cannot naturalize with him as they are already US citizens. Therefore, since they cannot naturalize, the only way for them to lose their blood right to Italian citizenship is to renounce it at adulthood.


According to what Tiffany was told by the consulate: "They interpret naturalization before 1912 to follow the rules of citizenship before 1912 in which the entire family naturalized, regardless of of any other birth citizenships."

So they don't care whether the children have jus solis US citizenship or not.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:40 pm

Em wrote:
nfig1 wrote:
zagnut wrote:
As I mentioned, this makes sense, given the 1901 Italian emigration law says descendents already born also lost Italian citizenship along with their father when he naturalized. 1901-1912 naturalizations would be subject to the 1901 law.


Well, this must apply to Italian minor children who emigrated with their father. Children born in the US (jus soli) to an Italian father cannot naturalize with him as they are already US citizens. Therefore, since they cannot naturalize, the only way for them to lose their blood right to Italian citizenship is to renounce it at adulthood. I repeat, the SF consulate's view of the Art. 7 of the 1912 law goes against the essence of what is jus sanguinis. Such an illogical and whimsical reading of the Article can no longer be permitted, and something must be done to reverse it.

I share your sentiments because, in effect, the American child of an Italian is subject to naturalization papers that do not pertain to him. Essentially, Zagnut is saying that it's not the 1912 law that is at issue, but the 1901 law which was in effect until 1912, when Article 7 was applied. Under this law, when the father naturalized and renounced citizenship, his American-born children did not naturalize with him but were still subject to the father's renunciation. It would be helpful to have a copy of that law.

I wonder what the interpretation would be if an Italian man came to the U.S. and naturalized in 1911, when his child was 22 years old. I suspect that in such a case the father's naturalization would not affect the son since, as an adult, he would be able to make his own renunciation if he chose to do so.

I wonder, too, what the interpretation would be for an American child of an Italian man who naturalized in 1900.


I have read the 1901 law Zagnut is referring to, and it pertains to Italian minor children who emigrated with their father, and who had no say in the loss of their Italian citizenship at the time of their father's naturalization. The law also mentions children born after a father's naturalization, a point which is not is dispute. Furthermore, the fact the the consulate is not mentioning this 1901 code should be information enough that it is irrelevant.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:47 pm

zagnut wrote:
Children born in the US (jus soli) to an Italian father cannot naturalize with him as they are already US citizens. Therefore, since they cannot naturalize, the only way for them to lose their blood right to Italian citizenship is to renounce it at adulthood.


According to what Tiffany was told by the consulate: "They interpret naturalization before 1912 to follow the rules of citizenship before 1912 in which the entire family naturalized, regardless of of any other birth citizenships."

So they don't care whether the children have jus solis US citizenship or not.


If that is indeed the case, the consulate is even more misguided. By definition of jus sanguinis, established in 1865, it would not be possible for an Italian child born in the US to be affected by his father's later naturalization. Since a US citizen by birth cannot naturalize, he cannot renounce his Italian citizenship via naturalization, only by formal renunciation as an adult. Hence, the consular forms requiring attestation that the ascendants never renounced Italian citizenship.
Last edited by nfig1 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:49 pm

nfg1 have you tried making an appointment with consulate and explaining your position to them? Maybe you can talk some sense into them.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:54 pm

zagnut wrote:nfg1 have you tried making an appointment with consulate and explaining your position to them? If I understand Tiffany, she has already spoken with them, and "They interpret naturalization before 1912 to follow the rules of citizenship before 1912 in which the entire family naturalized, regardless of of any other birth citizenships."

So they don't care whether the children have jus solis US citizenship or not.

Maybe you can talk some sense into them.


I alone wouldn't stand a chance. It would take a lawyer and potential law suit to get them to reconsider, or perhaps a judge to overturn their interpretation. If I find a good lawyer, I'll let you know his or her opinion. I'm sure many would like to know it. As you know, application processors are neither attorneys nor legislators and so have no real authority to "interpret" a law. Their power stems from our apparent lack of it.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:57 pm

Let us know how it turns out. I think you'll need to file your lawsuit in Italian court though, so you'll need an Italian lawyer. I don't think a US court has jurisdiction over a foreign country's Ministry of Foreign Affairs or its consulates.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:26 pm

In essence, the consulate is saying that American-born minor children of an Italian who naturalized before 1912 did not naturalize with their father but DID renunciate Italian citizenship with him. I've found no evidence in the laws to support this interpretation. Has anyone at the consulate actually showed you the written law that supports their position?
Last edited by Em on Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:37 pm

zagnut wrote:
Children born in the US (jus soli) to an Italian father cannot naturalize with him as they are already US citizens. Therefore, since they cannot naturalize, the only way for them to lose their blood right to Italian citizenship is to renounce it at adulthood.


According to what Tiffany was told by the consulate: "They interpret naturalization before 1912 to follow the rules of citizenship before 1912 in which the entire family naturalized, regardless of of any other birth citizenships."

So they don't care whether the children have jus solis US citizenship or not.


If you are referring to zagnut's post about the 1901 law, see my response above. The law was refers to Italian minor children not born in the USA, who emigrated with their father, who still being minors were obligated to naturalize with their father. The law makes no mention of those Italian children born in the US because naturalization does not pertain to them. Therefore, the consulate's viewpoint is counterfactual, if indeed this is their explanation. There are two ways to acquire citizenship in the US, by naturalization or by juri soli; it has to be one or the other. The consulate cannot simply "naturalize" a US citizen along with his father. If so, I'd have to produce naturalization papers for my US-born ancestor too, which is obviously not feasible. What's more, the 1912 law has nothing to do with the 1901 law, so if the consulate were actually using the 1901 law as its guideline, it would have to continue to do so post-1912. Additionally, since the consulate makes no direct mention of this 1901 law, but rather continues to push the one of 1912, the 1901 code is a non-issue along with the statement Tiffany received that seems to refer to it. The issue I believe once again goes back to their assumption to go ahead and "interpret" Article 7 of the 1912 law how they want to and we Italian-Americans being helpless to right the tort.
Last edited by nfig1 on Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:41 pm

Em wrote:In essence, the consulate is saying that American-born minor children of an Italian who naturalized before 1912 did not naturalizd with their father but DID renunciate Italian citizenship with him. I've dound no evidence in the laws to support this interpretation. Has anyone at the consulate actually showed you the written law that supports their position?


Thank you Em. I have put forth this very question to the SF consulate, and I will let you know what kind of response I receive. I worded it very politely and professionally, so I expect a full and thoughtful response within two weeks.

By the way, does anyone have the email address of the Consul General there just in case?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:50 pm

Tiffany may know. Send her a PM. Let us know how it goes. Best of luck.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:55 pm

I see this on the Italian embassy in Argentina site- agrees with SF interpretation (still no law referenced):
se la naturalizzazione è avvenuta fino al 30 giugno 1912, anche il figlio minorenne perdeva la cittadinanza italiana, se risiedeva all’estero ed era in possesso di altra cittadinanza

They're saying the minor lost Italian citizenship even if he/she possessed a citizenship other than Italian. BTW Argentina has jus solis.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:20 pm

zagnut wrote:I see this on the Italian embassy in Argentina site- agrees with SF interpretation (still no law referenced):
se la naturalizzazione è avvenuta fino al 30 giugno 1912, anche il figlio minorenne perdeva la cittadinanza italiana, se risiedeva all’estero ed era in possesso di altra cittadinanza

They're saying the minor lost Italian citizenship even if he/she possessed a citizenship other than Italian. BTW Argentina has jus solis.


Careful, again this pertains to Italian minor children born in non jus soli countries only. Italian children born in jus soli countries lose nothing if the father naturalizes. They are still Italian by blood. They have renounced nothing because they are not permitted to naturalize due to jus soli. Conversely, an Italian minor child living in Austria when his father naturalizes in the US loses his Italian citizenship because he has tacitly renounced his Italian citizenship along with his father. The child is now a US citizen living in Austria. This is possible because Austria is a non jus soli country. Here is a list of countries and where they stand par rapport à jus soli or jus sanguinis:

http://canada.metropolis.net/events/met ... eil2_e.htm
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:52 pm

I understand your position and agree with you, but that is not what the Italian consulate in Argentina site is saying. Like SF consulate, they hold a different view than you and I.

The following text indicates perhaps the Codice civile of 1865 is the source of the consulates' viewpoint. Seems similar to the rationale they gave Tiffany.
Venivano stabiliti, inoltre, il divieto della doppia o plurima cittadinanza, e l'unicità della cittadinanza del nucleo familiare (per cui l'intera famiglia seguiva le vicende del pater familias.




http://books.google.it/books?id=92qj6Y5q0X8C&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=naturalizzazione+dopo+1865&source=bl&ots=Ffpex0ZfMI&sig=p9ZwJJ0ZG3iw59jIRNW_Z4CLwD4&hl=it&ei=wcvsSdCkJceB_Aal2-zpAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9#PPA48,M1
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