Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:47 pm

I have put in a request to SF to provide and explain the law upon which they base their current interpretation. Hopefully, I will receive a complete and thoughtful response within two weeks. If not, well, that would not surprise me, and would only reinforce my belief that they have misconstrued the law. We will see.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:05 pm

I just got off the phone with an Italian consulate Vice Consul, a lawyer, and he had no idea how to justify the Jun 14, 1912 interpretation. One of the Italian translators I'm working with, who knows Anna Maria fairly well, and who has been dealing with dual-citizenship applicants for years, simply says, that Ms. Stone pretty much has free reign. That is the way it is. No one questions her authority. If you do, you better be prepared because she can make the process difficult for you if she wants. She went on to say that every few years, the citizenship laws seem to get a little tighter and the lines a little longer. Her explanation for the June 14, 1912 hurdle was that it likely comes from Italy, and if it is illogical, get used to it because that is the Italian way, etc. She felt that the interpretation was put in place to reduce the number of qualified applicants given that if, for example, an American moves over there, he instantly receives all the benefits of Italian citizenship without ever having had to pay a cent in taxes, etc. In addition, Italy has a huge illegal immigrant problem; so the country is simply trying to cut costs. I believe it. That was my theory from the outset. The interpretation of the 1912 law makes no sense; it cannot be soundly justified; no one at the embassy will justify it to you; you either make the hurdle or you don't. End of story.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby yjg » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:48 pm

nfig1, I wish you the best of luck with this. I know it is hard to take. Mrs. Stone does not fudge at all on the requirements. She made that pretty clear to a couple of people on Saturday when we had a question and answer period with her and the Consul General. Good luck.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:53 pm

Sometimes it's difficult for people to "switch gears" once they have taken a position. If that's all it is, it's really unfortunate because legitimate claims should not be rejected. Perhaps the man with whom you spoke will share his doubts with Mrs. Stone and perhaps she'll reconsider.

I agree with your translator. The lines have been getting longer. The laws, however, have not changed. What does seem to have changed is that today there seems to be less willingness to accept even minor, obvious, discrepancies. They may simply be getting tired of all this.
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Re:

Postby Monica » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:43 pm

Wow are they quicker over their in italy? if so where would the sicilian consulate or whatever go to apply in italy?

ZEROOTTO wrote:nfig1,
I have given up on applying for dual-citizenship through the SF consulate and I am attempting to apply directly in Italy. My relatives there have spoken with the comune and were told that I qualify. I travel to Italy fairly often for work so I will pursue it further on my next visit.

I'll update the post when I have more information.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:54 am

I'd like to state that I think I worded the sentence everyone is quoted badly.

What I was told was that prior to September 14, 1912, if an Italian father naturalized, the entire family renounced Italian citizenship with him. If the crux of this argument is my ill-worded talk of naturalization, to be clear, this isn't an issue of the US naturalizing them and Italy considering that an renunciation. Italy cannot dictate who the US naturalizes. It can however dictate who loses or keeps Italian citizenship under what circumstances and that is what the law is doing. Now, of course it seems contrary to Italian citizenship law today, but like many Italian laws, SF is interpreting the change on September 14th, 1912 as non-retroactive (for example like the 1948 law modification giving women the right to pass).
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:14 am

I think you might run into the same problem applying in Italy. The Ministero dell Interno guidebook on citizenship contains the same interpretation:
In buona sostanza, per la legge 555\1912, risultava rilevante che al momento della nascita sul territorio di uno Stato che attribuisse la cittadinanza secondo il principio dello ius soli, il soggetto (che deteneva anche la cittadinanza straniera per essere nato sul territorio di quello Stato) avesse il padre cittadino italiano. Se poi il padre fosse incorso nella perdita della cittadinanza italiana (ad esempio per naturalizzazione straniera), il figlio avrebbe comunque conservato lo status civitatis italiano.

Fino al 1912, invece, la perdita di cittadinanza del padre comportava in ogni caso la perdita della cittadinanza per il figlio minorenne.


pdf download (se page 15):
http://www.comune.brescia.it/NR/rdonlyres/26B28E79-3BAE-46BD-9303-E466BA5B9AC2/0/cittadinanzanormativa.pdf
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:45 am

zagnut wrote:I think you might run into the same problem applying in Italy. The Ministero dell Interno guidebook on citizenship contains the same interpretation:
In buona sostanza, per la legge 555\1912, risultava rilevante che al momento della nascita sul territorio di uno Stato che attribuisse la cittadinanza secondo il principio dello ius soli, il soggetto (che deteneva anche la cittadinanza straniera per essere nato sul territorio di quello Stato) avesse il padre cittadino italiano. Se poi il padre fosse incorso nella perdita della cittadinanza italiana (ad esempio per naturalizzazione straniera), il figlio avrebbe comunque conservato lo status civitatis italiano.

Fino al 1912, invece, la perdita di cittadinanza del padre comportava in ogni caso la perdita della cittadinanza per il figlio minorenne.


pdf download (se page 15):
http://www.comune.brescia.it/NR/rdonlyres/26B28E79-3BAE-46BD-9303-E466BA5B9AC2/0/cittadinanzanormativa.pdf


According to what I read, this still only pertains to non US-born Italian minor children. Those children born in the US to an Italian father have the benefit of both jus soli and jus sanguinis; the latter doesn't magically disappear 25 years later when the parent decides to naturalize. Regardless, my ancestor either never naturalized or did it in 1913, but obviously not both. I can neither disprove the census nor prove beyond a reasonable doubt he never naturalized because of the error on the 1920 census saying he naturalized in 1913. Still, since either case qualifies me, I should be fine. It's up to the consulate whether it wants to be nice or give me a hard time. I would just like to do something about this obstinate and unintelligent interpretation of the 1912 law that somehow SF feels is restricting jus sanguinis, which is impossible.
Last edited by nfig1 on Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:53 am

In buona sostanza, per la legge 555\1912, risultava rilevante che al momento della nascita sul territorio di uno Stato che attribuisse la cittadinanza secondo il principio dello ius soli, il soggetto (che deteneva anche la cittadinanza straniera per essere nato sul territorio di quello Stato) avesse il padre cittadino italiano. Se poi il padre fosse incorso nella perdita della cittadinanza italiana (ad esempio per naturalizzazione straniera), il figlio avrebbe comunque conservato lo status civitatis italiano.

Fino al 1912, invece, la perdita di cittadinanza del padre comportava in ogni caso la perdita della cittadinanza per il figlio minorenne.


nfig1, the unbolded part references that according to law 555\1912, any child born in a country that provided jus soli and before any naturalization of their Italian father would keep their Italian citizenship in the event of his naturalization after their birth.

The line zagnut bolded says "Up until 1912, however, the loss of citizenship by the father in every case meant the loss of citizenship for minor children."

It is clearly stating that contrary to what the rules are now, before 1912, the loss of citizenship of the father would also mean a loss of citizenship, no matter the case (whether they had citienship jus soli etc), of any minor children.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:07 am

Tiffany wrote:
In buona sostanza, per la legge 555\1912, risultava rilevante che al momento della nascita sul territorio di uno Stato che attribuisse la cittadinanza secondo il principio dello ius soli, il soggetto (che deteneva anche la cittadinanza straniera per essere nato sul territorio di quello Stato) avesse il padre cittadino italiano. Se poi il padre fosse incorso nella perdita della cittadinanza italiana (ad esempio per naturalizzazione straniera), il figlio avrebbe comunque conservato lo status civitatis italiano.

Fino al 1912, invece, la perdita di cittadinanza del padre comportava in ogni caso la perdita della cittadinanza per il figlio minorenne.


nfig1, the unbolded part references that according to law 555\1912, any child born in a country that provided jus soli and before any naturalization of their Italian father would keep their Italian citizenship in the event of his naturalization after their birth.

The line zagnut bolded says "Up until 1912, however, the loss of citizenship by the father in every case meant the loss of citizenship for minor children."

It is clearly stating that contrary to what the rules are now, before 1912, the loss of citizenship of the father would also mean a loss of citizenship, no matter the case (whether they had citienship jus soli etc), of any minor children.


It is still not clear that this "every case" refers to every case possible or every case involving "non US-born/jus sanguinis". If an Italian father's child was born in a jus soli state, that kid has both citizenships (dates back to 1865 law, 1912 law doesn't void this). This 1912 b.s. is nothing but a way to arbitrarily minimize the applicant pool. Others may not agree with me, but that is where I stand on the issue.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:20 am

I think it's not a matter of any of us disagreeing with you. We understand your position and agree with you.

The Ministry of Interior, along with the Argentina and SF consulates, hold a different view than yours. You'll need to convince them of the error of their view.

Note that in the quote below, "invece" means "instead". The Ministry of Interior is contrasting the pre-1912 norm with the post-1912.
In buona sostanza, per la legge 555\1912, risultava rilevante che al momento della nascita sul territorio di uno Stato che attribuisse la cittadinanza secondo il principio dello ius soli, il soggetto (che deteneva anche la cittadinanza straniera per essere nato sul territorio di quello Stato) avesse il padre cittadino italiano. Se poi il padre fosse incorso nella perdita della cittadinanza italiana (ad esempio per naturalizzazione straniera), il figlio avrebbe comunque conservato lo status civitatis italiano.

Fino al 1912, invece, la perdita di cittadinanza del padre comportava in ogni caso la perdita della cittadinanza per il figlio minorenne.


It is still not clear that this "every case" refers to every case possible or every case involving "non US-born/jus sanguinis".

"Ogni caso" means "every case". That much is clear.

The 1865 codice civile does establish jure sanguinis, but I'm not sure it supports this position:
if an Italian father's child was born in a jus soli state, that kid has both citizenships (dates back to 1865 law, 1912 law doesn't void this).

As the author, cited previously, remarked on the 1865 codice civile:
Venivano stabiliti, inoltre, il divieto della doppia o plurima cittadinanza, e l'unicità della cittadinanza del nucleo familiare (per cui l'intera famiglia seguiva le vicende del pater familias.
Last edited by zagnut on Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:30 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Tiffany » Tue Apr 21, 2009 3:27 am

From that standpoint, everything is BS. The 1912 law is BS as it denied women the right to pass on until the 1948 modification. And for that matter it was still BS trying to limit the pool after 1948 because after August 15, 1992 no Italian ever lost citizenship through naturalization.

While I agree that there needs to be uniformity in what law applies when and to whom, I cannot really agree with crying foul on some and not others. Unless you meant that all the rules prohibiting some and not others were unfair.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:15 am

Tiffany wrote:From that standpoint, everything is BS. The 1912 law is BS as it denied women the right to pass on until the 1948 modification. And for that matter it was still BS trying to limit the pool after 1948 because after August 15, 1992 no Italian ever lost citizenship through naturalization.

While I agree that there needs to be uniformity in what law applies when and to whom, I cannot really agree with crying foul on some and not others. Unless you meant that all the rules prohibiting some and not others were unfair.


Ok, I accept the other laws, not because of whether they apply to me or not. (Remember that I cleared the 1912 hurdle.) I accept the other laws because they have broadened jus sanguinis. The 1912 interpretation contradicts the basic meaning of jus sanguinis established in 1865 and arbitrarily takes away citizenship from those who had theretofore been considered citizens, thus restricting jus sanguinis. That none of the laws are retroactive indicates a deliberate and calculated position on the part of the Italian government to minimize the potential size of the Italian diaspora and therefore minimize the costs of potential repatriation. That some people get their citizenship recognized is simply a way to show good faith on the original meaning and intention of jus sanguinis established during the country's inception. But if all citizens were to be recognized, that could easily wind up being too problematic and costly. Not allowing the laws to be retroactive is just a way to impose restrictions on citizenship, which all countries do to a great or lesser extent depending on whether they need more people or not. When it wants to attract immigrants, it relaxes immigration laws and laws restricting freedom of movement, and vice versa when it doesn't. At present, Italy does not want more people who would be a burden to the state. For example, take your typical American, who happens to get an Italian passport, and can now simply show up without a job speaking little or no Italian, and collect state benefits, without ever having paid a cent in taxes, etc. This American is no different than an illegal immigrant in terms of what value he can add to the Italian economy. The difference is the American cannot be deported. This is a burden Italy can little afford. Thus, one way Italy can create restrictions is by not allowing its nationality laws to be retroactive.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:26 am

nfig1 wrote:
Tiffany wrote:From that standpoint, everything is BS. The 1912 law is BS as it denied women the right to pass on until the 1948 modification. And for that matter it was still BS trying to limit the pool after 1948 because after August 15, 1992 no Italian ever lost citizenship through naturalization.

While I agree that there needs to be uniformity in what law applies when and to whom, I cannot really agree with crying foul on some and not others. Unless you meant that all the rules prohibiting some and not others were unfair.


Ok, I accept the other laws, not because of whether they apply to me or not. (Remember that I cleared the 1912 hurdle.) I accept the other laws because they have broadened jus sanguinis, whereas the 1912 interpretation contradicts the basic meaning of jus sanguinis established in 1865 and arbitrarily takes away citizenship from those who had theretofore been considered citizens, thus restricting jus sanguinis. That none of the laws are retroactive indicates a deliberate and calculated position on the part of the Italian government to minimize the potential size of the Italian diaspora and therefore minimize the costs of potential repatriation. That some people get their citizenship recognized is simply a way to show good faith on the original meaning and intention of jus sanguinis established during the country's inception. But if all citizens were to be recognized, that could easily wind up being too problematic and costly. Not allowing the laws to be retroactive is just a way to impose restrictions on citizenship, which all countries do to a great or lesser extent depending on whether they need more people or not. When they want to attract immigrants, they relax immigration laws and laws restricting freedom of movement, and vice versa when they don't. At present, Italy does not want more people who would be a burden to the state. For example, take your typical American, who happens to get an Italian passport, and can now simply show up without a job speaking little or no Italian, and collect state benefits, without ever having paid a cent in taxes, etc. This American is no different than an illegal immigrant in terms of what value he can add to the Italian economy. The difference is the American cannot be deported and can claim state benefits. This is a burden Italy can little afford. Thus, one way Italy can create restrictions is by not allowing its nationality laws to be retroactive.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:49 am

Personally I find the refusal of the government to recognize pre-1948 Italian women's right to pass citizenship to their children much more onerous. It's hard to imagine how it broadens jus sanguinis. :? I believe it impacts many more citizens than the pre-1912 loss of Italian citizenship by US jus solis citizens whose fathers naturalized. It also stands a chance of being overturned by parliament in coming years. Italians abroad have representatives in parliament, so everyone, contact your representative about overturning pre-1948 discrimination against women.
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