Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Monica » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:03 pm

ok i get it... they dont want californias problems with illegals. however if i go their i dont want ot be an illegal thats why im trying to do it legally so i can be a productive citizen.. then you have to think of all the illegals they already have
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:04 pm

Hey, while we're complaining, I've got a complaint, too. The 1912 and 1948 laws were not retroactive. Neither was the 1992 modification. If we're saying that we'd like these laws to be applied retroactively, I vote "YES," but I'd include 1992 in the mix. My husband lost his citizenship through naturalization, and I'd dearly love to have it restored.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby yjg » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:18 pm

Hey, they don't even have to give us this opportunity at all. And whether or not we qualify, they make the rules and it is their country. And if they have to limit the number, somehow, they have the right to do that. They can't just let everyone in. Besides, there are SO many that do qualify and it is a drain on their resources to process all these applications which they do for free. I guess I see both sides of the issue but I think if they get too much grief, they could end it altogether. Besides, what country do you know of that is totally consistent with all their laws?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:43 pm

zagnut wrote:Personally I find the refusal of the government to recognize pre-1948 Italian women's right to pass citizenship to their children much more onerous. It's hard to imagine how it broadens jus sanguinis. :? I believe it impacts many more citizens than the pre-1912 loss of Italian citizenship by US jus solis citizens whose fathers naturalized. It also stands a chance of being overturned by parliament in coming years. Italians abroad have representatives in parliament, so everyone, contact your representative about overturning pre-1948 discrimination against women.


Well, I guess I mean it broadens jus sanguinis in the sense that before the law, women couldn't pass citizenship at all.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Em » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:58 pm

yjg, I agree; laws are not consistent in any country, and Italian citizenship laws are particularly generous. Certainly every country has the right to decide how it will determine citizenship. They do make the rules, and it is their country. That being said, as an Italian citizen, it is my country too, and I now have a voice--a small one :) . If there are problems that can be corrected, why not try to make it happen?

Citizenship laws were not designed to make it easy or difficult for anyone. They simply determine how citizenship is obtained and how it is lost, but the manner in which Italy determines citizenship and its acceptance of multiple citizenship, has encouraged many people to ask that their dormant Italian citizenship be recognized. To determine whether these requests are legitimate, Italy has established a series of guidelines, which we all know and love. It is in the application of these guidelines that many problems arise, and the inconsistencies from consulate to consulate have created many difficulties.

In addition, as people began to request recognition, inequities in the citizenship laws became increasingly obvious. Think of a family that obtains citizenship through the maternal line, and all siblings are eligible except the eldest who was born in 1947. Think of the child born in Italy to two Italian parents who emigrated to the U.S. and naturalized as a family in 1990. Are they really less Italian than the young person who has all Irish ancestors except one greatgreatgrandfather who came from Italy and never naturalized? There is really something wrong when my children cannot claim Italian citizenship from their Italian born and raised but U.S. naturalized father, and instead must trace their citizenship through a greatgrandfather in my line.

No one is trying to change Italy's generous jure sanguinis guidelines. What most of us would like to see is greater consistency among the various consulates, an acceptance of minor and insignificant document inconsistencies, and an attempt to address obvious inequities in the law. Were this to happen, the workload at the consulates would be considerably reduced, not because there would be fewer applicants, but because applications would move through the system more quickly.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:13 pm

Well, I guess I mean it broadens jus sanguinis in the sense that before the law, women couldn't pass citizenship at all.

I'm referring to the policy over the past 60 years to not allow pre-1948 births to Italian women to transmit citizenship.

We have an opportunity to change this policy by supporting the bill that would amend the 1992 law, permitting persons born to Italian women prior to 1948 to have citizenship recognized.
Last edited by zagnut on Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:24 pm

zagnut wrote:
Well, I guess I mean it broadens jus sanguinis in the sense that before the law, women couldn't pass citizenship at all.

I'm referring to the policy over the past 60 years to not allow pre-1948 births to Italian women to transmit citizenship. You are still talking about the 1912 law.

We have an opportunity to change this policy by supporting the bill that would amend the 1992 law, permitting persons born to Italian women prior to 1948 to have citizenship recognized.


I was referring to the 1948 law. Before it, no maternal transmission; after 1948, it is permitted. I call that "broadening", don't you?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:38 pm

The 1948 Constitution doesn't address women passing citizenship- but rather, gender equality. It took 35 years of legal cases and laws to finally reach the conclusion that women could pass citizenship to their children after 1948.

Now, we have the chance to rectify the inequity prior to 1948 by urging our members of parliament to pass a bill amending the 1992 law.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby nfig1 » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:02 pm

zagnut wrote:The 1948 Constitution doesn't address women passing citizenship- but rather, gender equality. It took 35 years of legal cases and laws to finally reach the conclusion that women could pass citizenship to their children after 1948.

Now, we have the chance to rectify the inequity prior to 1948 by urging our members of parliament to pass a bill amending the 1992 law.


Ok, thank you for the clarification. Notwithstanding, it is from 1948 when women could pass citizenship, and thus the point from which jus sanguinis is expanded. Hopefully, they can amend the 1912 law while they are at it.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby yjg » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:06 pm

Em, I totally understand what you are saying. I think eventually (I am an optimist) that all the consulates will conform to the same rules. My guess is that it exploded with applications and they were scrambling to make the guidelines. I definitely see both sides. I think they should have another window of opportunity for reacquiring citizenship for Italian born citizens. And yes, hopefully with our small voices we can make some changes that would make things more consistent and fair.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 2:21 pm

Hopefully, they can amend the 1912 law while they are at it.

Contact your member of parliament and lay out your proposal. If you make your case convincingly, perhaps he/she will be moved to introduce a bill to achieve your aims.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby DoreenJoy » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:20 pm

Tiffany wrote:From that standpoint, everything is BS. The 1912 law is BS as it denied women the right to pass on until the 1948 modification. And for that matter it was still BS trying to limit the pool after 1948 because after August 15, 1992 no Italian ever lost citizenship through naturalization.

While I agree that there needs to be uniformity in what law applies when and to whom, I cannot really agree with crying foul on some and not others. Unless you meant that all the rules prohibiting some and not others were unfair.


This analogy between the 1948 law and the 1912 law makes the most sense to me. If I wanted to apply through my mother's (b. 1936) mother, I clearly have no jure sanguinis because of the pre-1948 law. It seems clear that some of the consulates are interpreting the 1912 law in the same way. The changing of these laws is currently not retroactive.

I also noticed a post saying that Argentina and the SF consulate use the same interpretation of the 1912 law. Since the new CG in San Francisco came from Argentina, I wonder if he brought his interpretation of the 1912 law with him to SF?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Nicola » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:31 pm

nfig1 wrote:It is still not clear that this "every case" refers to every case possible or every case involving "non US-born/jus sanguinis". If an Italian father's child was born in a jus soli state, that kid has both citizenships (dates back to 1865 law, 1912 law doesn't void this). This 1912 b.s. is nothing but a way to arbitrarily minimize the applicant pool. Others may not agree with me, but that is where I stand on the issue.



Why would you expect an Italian law to reference the US?

You also need to go back and read the history. The reason this was changed to not **** kids was the problems it was causing for many South American kids. They would end up literally stateless. The Italian South American lobby groups pushed hard to have it changed. Memory tells me they actually had limits on people leaving the country. There were quotas. There was no interest in stopping people from coming back. They were stopping people from LEAVING.

If they wanted to limit the current pool they'd enforce all the rules with extreme effort.
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby Nicola » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:32 pm

S T R I P P E D gets starred out? ****?
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Re: Ancestors Naturalized before June 14, 1912

Postby zagnut » Tue Apr 21, 2009 4:37 pm

I also noticed a post saying that Argentina and the SF consulate use the same interpretation of the 1912 law. Since the new CG in San Francisco came from Argentina, I wonder if he brought his interpretation of the 1912 law with him to SF?

Or possibly they got the idea from the Ministry of Interior (the document I linked to earlier was written in 2003).
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