Upsetting paradox dealing with qualification

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Upsetting paradox dealing with qualification

Postby hellosquire » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:49 am

Hi.

Some of you have heard my story before, but I'm still looking for a definitive answer to get some closure.

I applied for citizenship at the NY consulate in July. I went through my great grandfather (my father's mother's father). My grandfather (my father's father) was born in Italy, but naturalized as an American in 1952. My dad was born in 1954, so I lost my path to citizenship via that route. Qualifying through my great grandfather made sense to me. His daughter, my grandmother, was born in America in 1911. Her son, my dad, was born in 1954. My great grandfather was born in 1880 in Italy, and did not naturalize as an American until 1921.

When I went to the consulate, I was told there was a possibility that my grandmother renounced her Italian citizenship when my grandfather naturalized in 1952, under the premise that "females take the nationality of their husbands." Well, my argument is that she didn't naturalize with him - she was already an American citizen, and that she inherited her Italian citizenship through her father, not through her husband. I thought she could only lose her Italian citizenship by naturalizing, which she never did - never could have as a native born US citizen.

I'm so worried that they skipped over my application. I've heard from another poster who went to the NY consulate in August, and got his citizenship a few weeks ago. Which also leads me to wonder if the consulate makes the decision, or if they wait for some sort of confirmation from Italy to send me my recognition letter. If that's not true, then surely I should've got my confirmation if I applied in July. I don't want to call them for fear of pestering them. I don't mind waiting at all, I just hope they didn't shelve my application without calling me to say I don't qualify or to ask for something I may need to provide. I had everything, translations for everything too. Nothing was missing from either side of the family.

My case seems to be a paradox with no definitive answer. During the meeting in July, the consular official said she'd "look over it in the afternoon" and call me. Of course, I never received a call. They couldn't give me a straight answer. Is there anyone fluent in Italian who could comb over the citizenship laws to see if my issue is explained? Even better, is there anyone here who received their citizenship under similar circumstances?

Like I said, I don't mind waiting for my recognition, but the qualification issue is driving me nuts after all the hard work and money I put into this project.
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Postby Em » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:58 am

If it will ease your mind a bit, the NYC Consulate does not always work so efficiently. My son applied September, 2006 and has not yet heard. His was a straighforward application. Others have reported equally long waits. I think the short turnaround time some people report is the exception rather than the rule.
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Postby hellosquire » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:00 am

I know, Em. I feel bad about that; I see you post a lot. He definitely deserves better, having to wait so long. They should at least call you if they needed anything more for his application.
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Postby Em » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:15 pm

Thank you for your kind words. However, I'm not really worried. I really believe the wait is generally about two years. I know that you are particularly concerned because of the situation with your greatgrandmother.

Consider this--American citizens born in the U.S. never lost citizenship (even as minors) due to the naturalization of an Italian parent. That is because an American citizen jus soli can NEVER naturalize to a citizenship he/she already possesses.

You clearly qualify, and I've no doubt you will ultimately be awarded citizenship, as will my son.

I think that certain applications are more time consuming--my son's because he submitted before translations were required; yours because of this odd interpretation.

I do understand, though, how frustrating it is to discover that people who've applied more recently have had their citizenships recognized before those who applied earlier. I quess it's like a real Italian queue; you can't determine who's at the front of the line.

I'm planning to apply in Newark next month to see what happens. I'd suggest you give the consulate a call to determine your status. I understand they are accepting calls in the afternoons.
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Postby hellosquire » Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:03 am

Thanks Em. I think I'll wait six months until the end of January, and then I'll give them a call with the guise of asking them if they need anything else from me before processing my application, because I'm moving to Japan in March.
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Postby peggymckee » Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:04 am

hellosquire wrote:I'm moving to Japan in March.
If you won't be keeping your NY address, then I believe your application will be transferred to Japan--maybe you need to check this out! Good luck with the move! All the best, Peg
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Postby Em » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:41 am

And maybe Japan won't consider this an issue. They shouldn't.
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Postby jlg » Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:21 pm

I reread your original post, something really is beginning to concern me
hellosquire wrote:During the meeting in July, the consular official said she'd "look over it in the afternoon" and call me. Of course, I never received a call. They couldn't give me a straight answer.


Did they ever say "Everything is set", or tell you the application was complete, etc, etc. or somesuch. I would follow up on this immediately. Some many times stories have been after months/years of waiting "Oh, yes, we just need (very simple) XYZ and then we can send your application on..." Please clarify how the application was left in July.

peggymckee wrote:
hellosquire wrote:I'm moving to Japan in March.
If you won't be keeping your NY address, then I believe your application will be transferred to Japan--maybe you need to check this out! Good luck with the move! All the best, Peg


I agree with Peg check this out!. I have to say that changing horses in midstream worries me (for no known real reason other than my gut reaction that is creates complication and confusion). It might actually be a good thing for you.

Before you leave, I would make sure I had second certified copies of everything (not just photocopies), just in case. Consider the possible need (or the *tactic*!!!) to reapply completely when you get to Japan.
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Postby hellosquire » Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:53 am

Hi tolly,

My great-grandfather arrived in 1903. My grandmother was definitely born in my hometown in New York in 1911, I was able to get the birth certificate and provided it to the consulate. She was the youngest and the only one born in America, the rest were born in Italy before 1903 and were listed on his naturalization certificate in 1921; naturalizing along with him.

Her father came from Molise, and her husband (my grandfather) came from Calabria in the 20s. I was able to provide the consulate with every document required, all from New York save one, my grandparents' marriage certificate from NJ, which I had verified at the Newark Consulate.

I really hope it works out from me. I'm really planning on moving to Italy and becoming a productive member of Italian society. I don't mind waiting a long time, I just hope they'd tell me if I didn't qualify under this particular circumstance, because I'd move straightaway to Italy and claim citizenship through the two year wait.
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Postby Em » Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:31 am

You're right, Tolly, that the petition lists all children, not only those born in Italy. However, if hellosquire's greatgrandfather omitted his grandmother's name, it may have been because he believed he needed to include only those children naturalizing with him. The U.S. birth certificate should substantiate that she was an American by birth.
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Postby Em » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:30 pm

tolly wrote:But it sounds to me like this woman was born in Italy and may have somehow obtained a fraudulent US birth certificate, which would have been discovered much earlier if her father had listed her on his naturalization petition.

You're making a lot of assumptions here.
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Postby lobezno » Tue Feb 12, 2008 5:31 am

tolly wrote:Assumptions, possibly. But the birth year 1911 might also have set off some alarm bells for the consulate since this child is not listed on the Naturalization Petition. 1911 is one year prior to the biggest wave of immigrants which arrived from Italy in 1912. My grand-mother arrived on the ship "Florida" from Port of Naples to Ellis Island in 1912. With her was her two year old son born in Italy in 1910.

My grand-parents didn't start giving birth to American children until 1914, when they were more or less already settled in America. The consulates, particularly New York, are well aware of all of this. I'm sure they've seen many cases of people who claim to have been born in the US but really were not, especially if they arrived as infants. In addition, they wern't born in US hospitals back then, but delivered by mid-wives who could have been paid to write up a birth certificate. Again, consulates are aware of all of this.


CJ/Angela is that you?

Discouraging people without facts is not nice...
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Postby Em » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:42 am

lobezno wrote:
tolly wrote:Assumptions, possibly. But the birth year 1911 might also have set off some alarm bells for the consulate since this child is not listed on the Naturalization Petition. 1911 is one year prior to the biggest wave of immigrants which arrived from Italy in 1912. My grand-mother arrived on the ship "Florida" from Port of Naples to Ellis Island in 1912. With her was her two year old son born in Italy in 1910.

My grand-parents didn't start giving birth to American children until 1914, when they were more or less already settled in America. The consulates, particularly New York, are well aware of all of this. I'm sure they've seen many cases of people who claim to have been born in the US but really were not, especially if they arrived as infants. In addition, they wern't born in US hospitals back then, but delivered by mid-wives who could have been paid to write up a birth certificate. Again, consulates are aware of all of this.


CJ/Angela is that you?

Discouraging people without facts is not nice...


So you noticed it too! :D Not surprising--CJ/Angela/Roberta always manages to come back with a new name but not a new style.
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Postby lobezno » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:28 am

Em wrote:
lobezno wrote:
tolly wrote:Assumptions, possibly. But the birth year 1911 might also have set off some alarm bells for the consulate since this child is not listed on the Naturalization Petition. 1911 is one year prior to the biggest wave of immigrants which arrived from Italy in 1912. My grand-mother arrived on the ship "Florida" from Port of Naples to Ellis Island in 1912. With her was her two year old son born in Italy in 1910.

My grand-parents didn't start giving birth to American children until 1914, when they were more or less already settled in America. The consulates, particularly New York, are well aware of all of this. I'm sure they've seen many cases of people who claim to have been born in the US but really were not, especially if they arrived as infants. In addition, they wern't born in US hospitals back then, but delivered by mid-wives who could have been paid to write up a birth certificate. Again, consulates are aware of all of this.


CJ/Angela is that you?

Discouraging people without facts is not nice...


So you noticed it too! :D Not surprising--CJ/Angela/Roberta always manages to come back with a new name but not a new style.


Yeah, déjà vu all over again!

Her writing style hasn't changed...
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Postby hellosquire » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:03 pm

Tolly, my grandmother's birth certificate is not fraudulent. She was delivered by a doctor, not a midwife, and I received the certified birth certificate in person from the state registrar in Albany. I also had to sue them for this supposedly fake document, and the apostilled court order is in the hands of the Italian consulate. I also have my great grandmother's Ellis Island manifest. The older children came over with her. Of course, my grandmother isn't on it, because she was born several years later in New York. I also have my grandmother's original baptismal certificate, from the church where she was baptized in New York a few months after she was born. I also combed the records of my ancestral comune for my grandmother's siblings' birth certificates. I found them, but not hers, and a wild guess tells me it's because she was born in New York. Not to leave any stones unturned, I contacted the comune and asked if they had her birth recorded on file, in case my great grandfather was thoughtful enough to register her. Being satisfied that his youngest daughter was an American citizen, I guess he didn't find it necessary.

After sending my FOIA request to Homeland Security for my great grandfather's naturalization certificate, I found the original naturalization certificate in my basement. With the exception of my grandmother, it lists his children, their ages, and their place of residence, not their place of birth. Homeland Security has since replied to my request and furnished me with an exact copy of what I already have, so I'm quite sure that's not fake either. I have several ancestor's naturalization certificates, and they have different formats. Then again, maybe they're all fake.

I'm not seeking any information about my ancestors. I have thoroughly uncovered every fact and likewise every document required by the consulate to complete the citizenship process. This is not a matter of digging into the past, it's a matter of the consulate resolving the issue in accordance with Italian law. Legally, the consulate is bound by the Hague convention to consider all apostilled documents as authentic, unless clearly observed physical alteration of the document is apparent. I haven't physically altered any of them, so hopefully the veracity of my grandmother's birth certificate shouldn't be an issue.

If the consulate finds it within the law to deny me citizenship based on her marrying my grandfather, then so be it. Having so many resources to rely on back in Italy, I guess they couldn't resolve the issue in the five minutes they combed their citizenship law books while I was sitting right in front of them. Then again, maybe their legal references were replaced with fakes.

I want to sincerely thank everyone else who has responded to this thread by offering me hope and possible solutions as we're all in or have been through this process together.
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