Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby Em » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:35 pm

My appointment was several years ago, but I doubt things have changed substantially. I went with my adult son, and after we arrived, we checked in at the desk and waited to be called. During the wait, we completed the application form (available online, so you can do this ahead of time). When we were called, we took the elevator to the third floor where we were directed to a large room with several desks. At one of those desks was our interviewer. We were invited to sit and present our documents.

I organized our documents in folders, one for each level in our Italian line. For us, this was my gf, f, me, son. I arranged the documents sequentially, and clipped the translation and one copy to each document. I included in each folder a list of the documents (and pertinent dates) included in that folder. I also submitted a detailed summary sheet that traced the line of descent (including dates) from my grandfather to my son. My grandfather's Italian birth certificate was returned to me, but they wanted two copies of it. They also wanted a copy of our U.S. passports and proof of residency.

He reviewed our documents and pointed out areas of concern--for us, only minor and easily fixed. Our citizenship was recognized about 22 months later, although today, you can expect the wait to be considerably shorter.

I don't know if your profession affects their review. My son is a surgeon, and I did not get the sense that they cared about it at all, but I think a good appearance and demeanor can only help. I do, however, believe you have a distinct advantage in that you are going back only one generation. If you can speak to them in Italian, that may be helpful too.

That you were born on a U.S. military base makes me even more confident of your success. Do let us know what happens.
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby JRG » Fri Jun 11, 2010 3:52 pm

I am putting together a similar package, although tracing back to my mother is not too document intensive. One problem I do have is that with an appointment being scheduled so quickly, I do not have any extra certified copies to leave behind. All of my Italian documents are originals so I expect they would want to to follow up with documents they can keep for the file. Not a big deal but definitely a time killer.

Unless we get into a conversation about the legal issues we discussed, I can't expect there is much to talk about other than the paper trail.
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby CPA21 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:11 pm

I had my last meeting at the NY consulate in late March. There are two men doing the interviews. You will meet with one of them. My experience is with the one on the right. He will take all your original documents except for your mother's naturalization papers and irreplaceable documents. For those papers they will look at the original but take a copy. If they reject your application all your documents will be returned.

Based on my experience I expect them to accept your application and do their legal research. I would expect a response within a 30-60 day time frame. If you provide them with your e-mail they will e-mail you the fact that you have been recognized and tell you to contact the passport office to obtain a passport.

It took me three visits to be recognized. We will stay positive.

Passports now have the digital chip and are processed while you wait. With a bit of luck you will have your Italian passport next month!
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby JRG » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:26 pm

Thanks, CPA. What do you consider an "irreplaceable document"?
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby CPA21 » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:55 pm

An irreplaceable document would be your mother's Italian passport from when she entered the country. I used my grandfather's italian passports from 1902 in my request for recognition. The 1902 passport functions as both a proof of citizenship and a birth certificate. While I brought the original in they were happy to take a copy.
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby JRG » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:26 pm

Most of my documants are technically "replaceable" but since they are originals I can't leave them with my file. If they accept copies after inspection then we're ok. Otherwise, it will take time to get certified copies.
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby JRG » Mon Jun 21, 2010 12:23 pm

Hello, all. I just wanted to give an interim update on my meeting with the NY consulate. My meeting went ok - at least my mom's naturalization issue did not come up. I could tell early on that I wouldn't be getting a clear answer that day when the gentleman scratched his head and said "this is a little complicated". This was his actual response when I told him I was claiming citizenship from the maternal descension. I gave him my quick summary of my understanding of the requirements and he simply asked to show him the documents. The good news is that he let me keep my older originals (I supplied him with high quality color scans), but I still need to get an abstract of my parents' marriage certificate from Naples. The original church documents were not suffice, I guess. He offered an email address where I could send a scanned copy as soon I have it available. My uncle in Naples is going to track this down for me some time this week. If all goes well, my file will be complete in about a week.

I am crossing my fingers that I can get approved without having to go the residency route. An attorney in Bologna offered to take care of that process for 2000 euro but said it would take a full year of residency before I would be approved. This is obviously in conflict with some of the options discussed earlier in this thread.

Nothing more for me to do other than sit and wait. Thanks again for everyone's input. - Jim
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby Em » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:43 pm

It seems that there's a good chance you can avoid the residency route.

BTW, you do NOT need a lawyer to go the residency route; don't throw away 2000 euro. From what I've heard, the one-year residency period is no longer enforced. Post your information and questions about this process on www.expatsinitaly.com Several people who post there have been through the process and can confirm the timetable.
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby JRG » Mon Jun 21, 2010 1:58 pm

I hope so, too.

There is no way I am paying anyone for plan B. The one year requirement is no longer necessary. The only issue is whether it can all be wrapped up within a reasonable vacation period. I will check the website you referenced for any pointers.
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby uwlaw » Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:46 pm

Strictly from a legal perspective, the law has actually never imposed a requirement of long-term residency for former citizens to reclaim their citizenship, as long as they made a declaration to that effect at an Italian consulate abroad PRIOR to moving to Italy.

Article 9(2) of the 1912 CItizenship Law provided for the resumption of Italian citizenship once the person renounced their foreign citizenship and moved to Italy within one year of the renouncement (note that there was no requirement that they then stay in Italy for any period of time, only that they move there within a year of making the declaration).

Similarly, since 1992, Article the law has provided four ways of reclaiming citizenship, any of which is valid. One of these allows you to reclaim it by residing in Italy for a year, in which case the resumption of Italian citizenship is automatic. An alternative way is by making a declaration at a consulate abroad that you wish to reclaim your citizenship and then moving to Italy within a year of the declaration, in which case the resumption of Italian citizenship takes place as soon as the local authorities confirm that you have really made the move:

"A person who has lost Italian citizenship shall reacquire it:

(a)if he or she effectively performs military service for the Italian State and has previously declared the wish to reacquire citizenship;

(b)if he or she enters or has entered public employment in an agency of the State, even abroad, and declares the wish to reacquire citizenship;

(c)if he or she declares the wish to reacquire citizenship and has established or establishes residence in the territory of the Republic within one year of such declaration;

(d)one year after the date on which he or she established residence in the territory of the Republic, provided citizenship has not been expressly renounced during that period;"
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby JRG » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:26 am

Hello, all. I am still in shock but this is how it went...

If you recall, I left my appointment on June 15th with instructions to get a copy of my parent's marriage certificate from Naples. My uncle did me the favor of going to the comune the week of June 21st and sent me a scanned copy on July 7th which I immediately forwarded to the consulate.

THIS MORNING I received an email from the consulate with a letter stating that my my birth certificate was sent to Naples and I am now registered in AIRE. This whole thing took less than 30 days - is this even possible???

I wanted to thank everyone for the great and reliable information (as well as the support). This has been hanging over my head for a long time now and it's great to finally get it behind me. Hopefully, I will be less stunned by the end of the day and be able to celebrate a little.

Thanks again for all the help. This is really a special day.

-Jim
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby CPA21 » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:34 am

The consulate can move quickly when there is no controversy!
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby JRG » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:47 am

Amen to that.
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby cosenz14 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:56 pm

I have a very nuanced question on this topic, and thanks to everyone who posted. This is a fascinating thread for me for reasons that i will makle clear below.

My great grandfather and great grandmother came from Italy in 1905 and they had my grandfather in 1906. They then naturalized on June 18th, 1912, 4 days after Legge 555/1912 was signed into law but 12 days before the provisions were slated to go into effect.

My application was rejected in Chicago last week on these grounds in spite of my pleading. The official I met with suggested I pursue another line (my grandmother was born in italy, but as i found out later, naturalized before my father was born). So she was simultaneously unhelpful (narrowly interpretting legge 1912) and helpful (suggesting another line I might qualify through). I understand that the Chicago consulate is one of the toughest. Is anyone aware of a consulate that overlooks or does not strictly enforce Legge 555/1912? I am considering moving into Philedelphia's jurisdiction for other reasons. I also could set up residency in LA or Miami's consulate through relatives.

I am willing to do a lot to make this work considering I have prefessional opportunity in Italy, but my next step has to be a big one. So, I am trying to find out if anyone has had any recent experience with the consulates and the 1912 rule/law and consulates that might interpret it loosely or more tightly. Does anyone have any advice for me? I would greatly appreciate any feedback

Thanks,

-Sam
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Re: Born a Citizen - Mother Naturalized

Postby malcolm » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:15 am

cosenz14,
Try the Philly consulate. Someone was recognized there recently even though he shouldn't have qualified under the 1865 Civil Code, and it wasn't even close (GF born in US in 1904, GGF naturalized in US in 1909, or something like that). You should be OK, unless the consulate learns the laws better.

But you have misphrased the question. All consulates enforce Legge 555/1912. The question is, do any consulates not enforce the law prior to it?

BTW, Em et al.:
A US military base is not US territory for 14th Amendment purposes. It even says this on the State Department's website. Moreover, the land itself is probably leased from Italy, and thus would be Italian. It's possible the consulate didn't know this, or that Italy has a different view, but I think it more likely that they just didn't apply the law correctly. It happens with the 1912 rule, so why not this, too? I've found consular officials who were shocking ignorant about much more basic stuff.
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