Boston wouldn't take NARA certified copy!

Determine if an ancestor was ever naturalized and, if so, discuss your consulate's requirements for proving this.

Moderator: Daniel

Postby Luca722 » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:55 pm

Hi Larry,

Sure, no problem!

I'll clarify further on the requirements with the District Court letter:

You'll need this Apostilled for the Consulate & Italy, however, a requirement to get any document Apostilled by the Secretary of State is that the document needs to be notarized (as well as certified). Deborah's letter is certified, but not notarized - they do not have a notary at the District Court Clerk's office.

To get anything notarized, the signer must be present and sign the document in front of the notary public. Since she already signed it, you'll have to fill out a letter that's attached to the document (I forget what the document is, but the Boston City Hall notary has this form). Basically, you'll have to state that you, the undersigned, confirms the following:

"The attached letter was written by Deborah Scalfani and was signed by Debbie Scalfani".

You can check with your Bank of America notary to see if they can do this however, since you have to go to the Secetary of State office for Apostille, you might as well visit the Boston City Hall - it's only a five minute walk between the two. Unless you're mailing the document?

Hope this helps, and does not confuse you. Let me know if you need me to elaborate further.

Best of luck!
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Postby Larry » Wed Mar 05, 2008 12:34 am

That does help. Thanks!! I did not know the two places were so close. I can do them all in one trip then.

So I take it you already passed in all of your paperwork to the consulate? Are there any other quirky tid bits about the Boston Consulate I should know about. Did you fill out an Application Form for citizenship prior to going to the consulate?

I am so close to getting in there, and I want to limit my # of trips to the city/consulate and the # of vacation days I need to take off from work. :roll:
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Postby Luca722 » Wed Mar 05, 2008 4:51 pm

Hi Larry,

They're very close to one another. Here's a Google Map for you: ... 6&t=p&z=15

Yes, I met with the Consulate last week to pass in my documents and to fill out all the paperwork. I had met with him several times, so he was very familiar with my documents. He photocopied my passport and MA license, then asked me a few questions in which he recorded on his computer. He then printed out the application. I signed and filled another form, I believe it was the A.I.R.E form. Basically it asked name, contact information, and how I apply for Jure Sanguinis. I then signed and dated. He then asked for all my documents in order, starting with my great-grandfather. Once we finished that, he passed me off to another women who finalized the application. I filled out a form to Register to vote in the Comune. That was basically it. He said to check back in a few months, so I hope to hear back by the beginning of the summer (fingers crossed)! I plan to post a full report of my process once I receive Citizenship.

Feel free to ask specific questions or post a document check list. Be happy to help!
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Postby Larry » Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:56 pm

Hi Luca,

Thank you very much for the info! You have saved me soo much headache already, I am sure. I think I will post a document checklist once I get the items you already said I needed.

Last question for a bit ( I hope :oops:): Did you get your great grandfather's 'Petition For Naturalization' & 'Oath of Allegiance' with the 'Affidavit of Witnesses' paperwork from the National Archives in Waltham?
Along with the letter from the Federal Court I do not need to get the Certificate of Naturalization' from Lee Summit/USCIS, correct? I am pretty sure that you said we do not in an earlier post, but now that I am stumbling & I want to make sure esp. with the big backlog at Lee Summit....

Thanks again! You are extremely helpful.
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Postby Luca722 » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:01 pm

Hi Larry,

Glad my post was helpful.

Yes, I did receive his Naturalization paperwork from the NARA in Waltham - Petition, Declaration of Intention, and his Oath of Allegiance. They gave me certified reproductive copies (with red ribbon and gold seal). You do need to submit this to the Consulate; however, these do not need to be Apostilled.

I also submitted the letter from the Federal Court with Apostille. Put this on top of the NARA documents - do not staple or attach them together.

I never received my GGF's Naturalization Certificate. I did send a request for it via FOIA/USCIS just to cover my tracks, but this was before the Boston Consulate informed me that the Certificate was not necessary, just the Letter from Federal Court and NARA documents - PHEW! This was certainly a sign of relief as most Consulates require the Certificate.

Let me know if I can help further.

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Postby jlg » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:42 am

No joy from the Eastern District of NY Federal Court. Struck out on the third try (phone in Feb, letter to clerk followup with form letter response 'Rejected, All court filings blah blah blah must be blah blah', and yesterday in person).

After driving down in the rain, wearing the standard conservative charcoal pinstripe suit (and getting assumed for a lawyer in the security line, twice) and then waiting a long time standing alone at a huge empty counter as a staffer shuttles back and forth to the 'supervisor' every 10 to 15 minutes.

I have no idea if the staffer was a clerk, a deputy clerk, a secretary, a paralegal, an assistant, or someone else. She was polite and perfunctory, but her and her peers were dressed just at the what I would consider 'casual friday'. Communicative and clear as someone familiar with this office in terms of legal vocabulary, but I did not get the impression this person had a a lot of college or graduate level education.

Negotiating through a functionary is nigh impossible. So for the better part of an hour, we played this relay game:

'could I please a letter about this',wait 10 minutes,'NARA is sufficient'

'the foreign nation would just like a note saying it is all OK',wait 5 minutes, 'go to the INS','thats 18 months (OK I stretched)','you just have to wait'

'can I get that in writing?',wait 5 minutes,'you need to go to the INS',

'but I just need a summary of the acts executed here at the court, not a naturalization certificate',wait 15,'nice try, no',

'but how do I prove that the court did this?',wait 10,'the record from NARA is good enough',

'so I don't make a mistake can you give me a note outlining the policy', wait 5 minutes, 'our policies follow federal law','please at least tell me which law?','we cannot give out legal advice',

'is their anything you could suggest to help me out',wait 5 minute,'NARA or the INS'

'um...','NARA or the INS'

'Sorry-'NARA or the INS'-to bother you','Oh, no bother' <smile> as she goes back to her desk leaving me at the counter.

'Thanks, bye'..'Oh' (in my best Detective Columbo), 'one more thing, could I get contact information to forward to the Boston Consulate so they understand.' (Yeah, right.) Bingo! Name and number of 'the supervisor' .... VM all day though.

The Eastern District of New York Federal Court has refused to write ANYTHING to accompany the NARA copy of THIS COURTS Oath and Petition. Not even a generic uncertified letter: "The official records records for Naturalization in 1928 from this court are held bythe National Archives and Records Administration, pursuant to US federal law blah blah blah."

Suffice to say I am *extremely exercised*, it may be time to just explain it to the 10+ other american citizens I am trying to help and the US court can just say no to all of them individually, each time they ask, until those people decide to give up. In any event, I've probably burnt this bridge, but I'll let some time pass before figuring my next plan. I'll deduce the supervisors vacation schedule to strike again.

The wait for the G639 goes on.

I still want to hold back on either hiring "the attorney who practically lives there and know everyone" (after I find that attorney and finance the person) to do the work for me or any sort of "I demand my rights' letter writing campaign (though I did get the names of all the Judges on the bench there before I left.) just dropping a nice letter explaining my plight to see if I can light a fire, as that will almost assuredly not help me... then again it may be too late for anything attached to this ancestor, but maybe the next New York ancestored Boston applicant will get through.

Any *other* tips are appreciated.
PS: By the end, I probably wasn't that nice, but I didn't raise my voice or anything, and she did give me the name/phone number.
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Postby peggymckee » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:13 am


Your story makes me think you are asking the wrong person--since I had a similar experience with Chi. Fed. Court--who claimed that all nat. stuff had been sent to NARA and they had nothing in house.

I have a 2 questions-- (1)are you saying that you have NARA docs but also need a copy of naturalization certifcate--or as a substitute, a letter from Fed. Court stating that the certificate was issue to your ancestor?

(2)If you had a copy of the certificate (from USCIS e.g.) does that have to be certified (by the Boston Consulate)?

I have a friend who works in Federal court in NY. I could ask her what office you should approach--but I want to be sure I understand what you want first. All the best, Peggy M
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Postby jlg » Thu Jun 05, 2008 5:59 pm

I am 100% in agreement that I am asking the wrong person. (The right person would just give me the letter I need to make Sig. Corrao happy!)

I went to the Eastern District of NY Federal Court (In Cadman Plaza Brooklyn) to room 118, the Clerk of the Court office (which is also the Naturalization Office). What exactly did you do at the Chicago Office?

To your questions:

(1) NO to the first part (I am trying to do this w/o waiting for the USCIS records) YES along with NARA paperwork to the second part.

(2) I don't know, I am sure that originals do not need apostille, but letters from USCIS might need to be. Im worried about Apostilles, as they can all be done by courier, friend or in person (for small sheafs of docs) in a day.

Let me clarify - Boston requires one of these four options.:

1. The original Naturalization Certificate
2. "Letter of NO record" from the USCIS
3. Records of naturalization from USCIS
4a. NARA certified copy of the Oath and Petition (I have this)
b. Corroborating letter from the court where oath and petition were executed (what I am trying to get)

I believe you need federal apostilles for 2 and 3, and a state apostille using the "Luca's covering letter of signature approach" outlined earlier in this thread, but again, I'm stuck on the court letter, Apostille is to be addressed later.

I even tried supplying them with a sample letter (specifics removed and nothing for the signature). Hope I covered all the needs w/o extra info.


Dear JLG,

ANCESTORNAME, born DATE1, in COMMUNE, Italy, entered the United States on or about DATE2.

ANCESTORNAME filed a Declaration of Intention #NUMBER1 at the COURTNAME to become a citizen of the United States on DATE3.

ANCESTORNAME took the Oath of Allegiance #NUMBER2 at the COURTNAME becoming a citizen of the United States on DATE4.

NAME received Certificate of citizenship #NUM BER4.

A National Archives certified copy is attached.




I brought 4 certified copies, copies of the little INS index card of naturalization (from

Any advice, methods, sideversion etc. Greatly appreciated. Here or PM.
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Postby peggymckee » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:47 pm

Hi JLG--
I had a similar experience to yours with Fed Court in Chicago--except that I had it over the phone! So I gave up and asked USCIS for my GF's naturalization records--which arrived 5 months or so later. They weren't certified however--even though I had asked them to be. I don't know if this will be a problem. I kept the envelope.

Upon reflection, maybe the best thing to do is get in touch with the Boston Fed Court and speak to the person who helped Luca--the idea being that s/he can tell you what dept to ask for at NY Fed Court. Good luck, Peg
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