no idea where he was naturalized...

Determine if an ancestor was ever naturalized and, if so, discuss your consulate's requirements for proving this.

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no idea where he was naturalized...

Postby jobi » Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:00 pm

Hi all,

Awesome site and all this has intriqued me.

According to census records my GGGF was naturalized in 1885. It doesn't saw where. I'm looking for proof of this but I don't have much info. I know that he entered the US via New York in 1880. His approximate year of birth was 1848 in Italy and I have not found his time of death although his son, my GGF, was born in 1886. My GGF was born and lived in Illinois.

Not sure where to check next but any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Joseph
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Postby Em » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:26 am

If you are looking for information for genealogy purposes, you may want to visit www.italiangenealogy.com There are many people who post there who have access to records that may assist you in finding what you are looking for.

If you are looking for information for citizenship purposes, this line will not work because naturalization before 1912 ended the Italian line.
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Postby jobi » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:50 am

I'm looking more more citizenship purposes. Could you clarify this 1912 thing? I haven't seen anything written about it. If my GGGF was naturalized after my GGF but before 1912 then citizenship isn't possible.

I should also mention that using a GGGF is stretching back a far ways but I was planning on getting my living father eligibility and then using his to get my brothers and I citizenship.

THanks
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Postby matta » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:19 am

I'm still trying to understand the 1912 rule, but from what I've been able to piece together...

The current Italian citizenship laws by jus sanguinis came into effect in 1912. Before 1912, being born in a foreign country with a foreign nationality was enough to lose Italian citizenship. So, if a person naturalized before 1912 and had children in a foreign country, he lost citizenship through naturalization, and his children lost citizenship through residency. However, if a child was born before 1912, eventhough the child lost citizenship at birth, he could reacquired it in 1912 from the parent if the parent was still (in 1912 or at time of death) an Italian citizen.

So, an an example, a GGGF is born in Italy in 1870. That GGGF Comes to the US in 1890, has a child (the GGF) in 1892, then the GGGF naturalizes in 1920.

The way it works is that the GGGF is an Italian citizen at birth. The GGF, when born in 1892 is a US citizen but NOT an Italian citizen. In 1912 when the new citizenship laws pass, the GGGF is still a citizen, and transfers citizenship to his decendents, the GGF (and a GF if one exists, but obviously not in this case).

Your case....

GGGF is born in Italy in 1840. That GGF Comes to the US in 1880, naturalizes in 1885, then has a child (the GGF) in 1886

In your example, you're already out because the GGGF was not an Italian citizen (by naturalization) with your GGF was born. But let's assume the naturalization was actually 1887. Even in that case, Your GGGF was born an Italian citizen, your GGF was born a US citizen but NOT an Italian citizen (because the 1912 laws were not in effect and he was born in a foreign country), then your GGGF became a US citizen and NOT an Italian citizen in 1887. So, in 1912, when citizenship could be passed jus sanguinis, there were no citizens left to pass it. Your GGGGF could not pass it to your GGGF because the GGGF renounced his Italian citizenship, and your GGF could not get it from the GGGF because the GGGF was not an Italian citizen.
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Postby matta » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:29 am

And don't worry about "stretching it back". There are several people who are using a GGGF. Other than wearing down the G button on the keyboard, that specifically doesn't seem to be a problem.

Keep looking for the naturalization, though. If it turns out that your GGGF never naturalized, or naturalized after 1912, you should be eligible.

And don't confuse a declaration of intention to mean that he naturalized. There are many cases where people started the process but did not finish (and therefore did not renounce citizenship).
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Postby Em » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:31 pm

Matta, you are absolutely correct, and you are particularly correct in advising Joseph to continue his search.

Joseph, the census information was notoriously inaccurate, so unless you get confirmation elsewhere that your ggggrandfather actually completed his naturalization before 1912, keep on searching. Try www.ancestry.com and the genealogy site I mentioned previously. Five years from entry to naturalization is possible, but most did not do so that quickly. Do check further.

If I may expand a bit on the 1912 ruling--The Naturalization Law of 1912 established jure sanguinis as the way in which citizenship was derived. If the dates you give are correct, when your gggrandfather was born in 1886, he was born an American citizen. He could not obtain Italian citizenship from his Italian father because jure sanguinis was not the law at that time. If his father did not naturalize, then in 1912, when jure sanguinis became law, he became an Italian citizen; but if his father naturalized before 1912, his father lost the ability to pass on this citizenship.

So, keep checking and also explore other branches of your family tree. You can go as far back as you wish as long as the death of your ancestor does not come before the year of Italy's unification and as long as your ancestor did not end the line by naturalizing before 1912.
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