naturalization vs. renunciation

Determine if an ancestor was ever naturalized and, if so, discuss your consulate's requirements for proving this.

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naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby pamgam » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:47 am

I have all my papers in order after several years work for citizenship, but I am very confused about the information for naturalization. My grandfather, born in Italy in 1893, became a naturalized American citizen in 1923. My father, born in the U.S. in 1914, was obviously born before my grandfather became a naturalized citizen. I have a copy of this from the U.S. Immigration and Citizenship Bureau, although they misspelled my grandfather's last name by one letter. The question is that in 1923 when he became naturalized, part of the form states that he renounced his allegiance to Victor Emmanuel 111 King of Italy. Does this mean I am ineligible? How can one become naturalized without renouncing their former citizenship? My father and I are both American citizens, but we have never renounced italian citizenship. I hope this will not affect my claim for citizenship. Can anyone help? Thanks!
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby Em » Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:52 am

Yes, your grandfather did renounce his Italian citizenship when he naturalized. This is not a problem for you because your father was born before he renounced. Thus, your father acquired Italian citizenship at birth as did you.
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby pamgam » Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:00 am

Thanks, Em. This is good news!
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby bealudobona » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:04 am

Em wrote :
> Yes, your grandfather did renounce his Italian citizenship when he
> naturalized. This is not a problem for you because your father was born
> before he renounced. Thus, your father acquired Italian citizenship at
> birth as did you.
Em,
This is an academic question: Even during the first step of the naturalization process - the declaration of intent - the applicant renounces allegiance. In the case of someone who declares but doesn't follow through, would the consulate consider the descendants of such a person ineligible for citizenship jure sanguinis(let's assume the declaration of intent was filled out before the birth of the next-in-line)? Or is it the actual naturalization that counts?
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby Em » Tue Aug 31, 2010 9:37 am

The Declaration of Intent does indeed have wording that seems to imply renunciation, but Italy does not consider you to have renounced until you actually take a new citizenship. This would be the date you take the oath. So if you declare and never naturalize, you retain Italian citizenship.

Interestingly enough, the wording of the pledge taken during the naturalization process in the U.S. today still includes a statement that implies renunciation. Italy apparently no longer cares.
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby bealudobona » Tue Aug 31, 2010 11:44 am

Interesting.
We all are sure that my great grandfather never naturalized, although we were surprised to find a Declaration of Intent made in the County Court 13 yrs after the birth of my grandfather. Is a Declaration of Intent generally considered by the Consulates (I'm using Newark) to be proof that the immigrant was not naturalized in the years leading up to it, ie in my case not naturalized before the next-in-line? Or will they still want the USCIS no records ltr and certification of nonexistence of record? (I'm also hoping the USCIS index search will yield an alien registration card for him.) And would it still matter to the Consulate if he naturalized or not afterwards since the declaration was filled out over a decade after the next-in-line in the bloodline?
Thanks.
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby Em » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:07 pm

One would think that the declaration after the birth of your gf, should be enough, but I suspect that they would want additional confirmation. I would get the "no record" letter from both the federal and county governments to be on the safe side. The consulates are asking for more and more confirmation in recent months, and it's better to have more than less. If you don't get the letters by the time of your appointment, however, you should go in with what you have. Who knows; they may accept it as proof that your ggf was still Italian when your gf was born. I certainly would, but I don't work for the consulate. :(

BTW, you may be surprised and find that he actually did naturalize--perhaps in the federal court.
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby bealudobona » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:18 pm

Thanks, Em. Yeah, my concern stems from the knowledge that USCIS can take forever and I was hoping the Declaration would be sufficient in the event I don't get what I need from USCIS by the time of my appointment. In addition to the Declaration from the county court in NJ, we have a statement from that same court that they have no actual naturalization record for him there, as well as no-records letters from the other two local courts in counties where he lived, and no records ltrs from two NARA regions. Finally, we have three decades of censuses that indicate he is an Alien.
But as you point out, better too much information than too little.
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby Em » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:42 pm

I have a feeling you may be ok with what you have. I found the people in Newark to be very reasonable, and you have a lot of supporting documentation. Best of luck.
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Re: naturalization vs. renunciation

Postby joanj » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:24 pm

Hello, I read with interest your messages particularly EM. I am an american citizen, born in Italy in 1946 of italian
mother and american father. Mother and Father were married in Italy in 1945 which gave my
mother the right to enter the US, apply for naturalizzation etc under the War Brides Act 1945.
I am applying for italian citizenship since I have been living in Italy for over 20 years now and with only
a permesso di soggiorno (visa) which I have to renew every 5 years (this is tiring).
In any case, the italian court judge is very much interested if my mother attained immediate citizenship
at the time of her marriage to my amerian father. I need to document that no she did not but she did
acquire the right to enter the U.S. because of the marriage and then the right to naturalize.
Also, I'm thinking that mother remained an italian citizenship right up until the time she took the "oath"
for citizenship after 3 years of residence in the U.S. Do you happen to know anything about this because
if I am right then when I was born, I was born to an italian citizenship who was italian for 3 years after
my birth therefore I would have the right to italian citizenship. She naturalized in 1949.
Thanks, Joan
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