Do Certified Census Documents need Apostille?

Gather certified copies and apostilles.

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Do Certified Census Documents need Apostille?

Postby lilpokey » Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:59 pm

Hello,
Thank you so much to all the people on this wonderful site. I've learned an amazing amount of information in a very short time. Right now, I'm knee deep in paperwork. Just received my 1910 and 1930 Certified (with red ribbon) census copies. Do I need to get Apostilles for them? Since they are from the "National Archives" I'm a bit confused. Any help will be appreciated! :D
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Postby Em » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:29 pm

No the census records do not need an apostille. Actually, these are not necessary (the census records) for a jure sanguinis application.
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Postby CJR » Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:59 pm

Em wrote:No the census records do not need an apostille. Actually, these are not necessary (the census records) for a jure sanguinis application.


They could be - my consultate told me that they required them (as part of proving a negative, that my ancestor never naturalized). You're right though - they don't need an apostille.
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Cenus Documents/Apostille

Postby lilpokey » Wed Apr 26, 2006 3:52 pm

Hi, Thanks for the help! I realize they aren't part of the required documentation, but while I'm waiting for other documents to arrive, I'm sending for everything I can so I'll have "backup" for anything they question.
So far NY city hasn't come up with my grandfather's birth certificate. The NY Archdiocese just send back the Baptismal Certificate without having notorized it (which I made very clear in my letter), so I sent it back again with another letter explaining again why it needs to be notorized.

I understand from this message board that some embassies may accept the Baptismal cert with Apostille and some do not. Again, I'm just looking ahead in case New York City comes up with a "no record found" on the birth certificate.

My appointment is with the Los Angeles Consulate - September 2007!

I'm going down the paternal line.

Best Regards to All.

Lynn
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Census Recors

Postby Anonymous » Wed Apr 26, 2006 5:39 pm

It depends on the consulate if they are needed or not. I needed to provide certified census records to the San Francisco Consulate. It is alway a good idea to check with the consualte as they all do things a little differently.
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census documents

Postby lilpokey » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:07 pm

pascalena,
When you say certified, do you mean the paper with the red ribbon attached that comes from the Archives or did you have to send it to a county clerk or state offical to authenticate it?
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Postby teggiano77 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:13 pm

Dear Lynn,

I too am having a hard time trying to have the NY Archdiocese notarize my great-grandparents marriage cert. They sent me it with a red stamp. I sent it back with a check (donation) for $10 and asked them to notarize it and I explained that I must send it to the clerks office and then to the Sec. of State to get it apostilled. I too, am going through the LA consulate with an appointment in June, 2007. Did Raffaela give you a specific date or did she just say Sept, 2007?

Lindsay
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Postby teggiano77 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:17 pm

Dear Lynn,

Generally, all documents relating to the naturalization/non-naturalization of the person whom you are applying through do not need to be apostilled. I too, have a certified copy of the 1910 census in which it gives my great-grandfather's citizenship status as "AL" alien. He died three years later. But, if you change your mind and decide to apply for italian citizenship in Italy, all documents have to be apostilled. So in that situation, since it is a federal document, you would have to have it apostilled by the US Secretary of State.

Take care!
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Postby lilpokey » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:29 pm

teggiano77,

Raffaela did not give me a day, she said the month before my appt., she would contact me with the exact date.

Thanks for the info, I think I'll see about getting the census documents apostilled. (just in case).

It appears from this message board, that getting the archdiocese to notarize the baptismal certificate takes about 3 trys. I explained in detail when I originally sent in to them, that I understood they would place the red seal on it but that I absolutely needed their notorial staff to notorize it. Still didn't happen... I had even called them prior to the mailing and put the letter to the woman's attention and she advised not to send any money! (she was one of the notorys).

When I resent it this morning, I also added a $10.00 donation. Hope it works this time.

This whole process is absolutely fascinating to me. An awful lot of "hurry up and wait!"

Would love to hear from others that have gone to the Los Angeles Consulate and hear about what was asked for and how long it took them to get their citizenship.
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Postby Em » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:38 pm

Relax about the NY birth certificate. They are incredibly slow. It doesn't mean they won't find it eventually. I went in personally to get one for my daughter and they couldn't find her name in the system. Luckily, I had her original birth certificate with the certificate number, and they found it. Apparently the person who did the data entry mistyped her last name. That's NY, so just sit back and wait.
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Postby lilpokey » Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:54 pm

Thanks to everyone for all your posts! I'll keep plodding along and keep my fingers crossed.

Em, thank's for the advice on NY city. My grandfather's birth certificate is a key item I need, so hopefully they will come up with it.

I placed my order for my great grandfathers birth certificate in Limosano, Italy this morning with ICGS. I sent them a copy of the original, so hopefully it will come in a timely fashion.
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Postby teggiano77 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:29 pm

Dear Lynn,

I had planned on submitting my docs in Italy as I have an apartment there and wanted to go back to get my residency, but taking the time off from work is a big problem so I am going to submit docs at the LA consulate. But I did have the census page apostilled. It was very easy and it only cost $6.

Regarding the NY Archdiocese, I re-sent the marriage cert a good month ago and haven't heard anything or received it back yet. I'll keep my fingers crossed!

Regarding the LA consulate, I have no idea how long after one submits docs that it takes to get citizenship; however I would assume at least one year. I started collecting my documents in November, 2005 and am pretty much finished with everything, translations and apostilles. I am just waiting on one last certificate from Sacramento. I had to do a court-ordered delayed registration of birth for my grandfather because his birth cert was destroyed in the 1906 earthquake and fire in San Francisco. As soon as I get that, I will be good to go and then just wait until June, 2007!
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Postby Anonymous » Thu Apr 27, 2006 1:57 am

It appears we have some misleading information on here, that I believe needs to be clarified for those seeking dual citizenship.

AT NO TIME, is a Census record a "required" document by ANY Consulate, nor would it need an Apostille. However, there may be a rare case, where the Consular chief may accept it, as proof of "alien status", under certain circumstances. The average person would never need a census record. The ONLY time a Census record would need an Apostille, is if the applicant was applying in Italy. This brings up another clarification:

The website "expatsinitaly.com" promotes the idea of applying in Italy, and to BYPASS the Consulates, and I advise people to not visit the website, as it could lead to extraordinary circumstances, where the applicant will have to undergo extreme bureacracy and red tape in Italy, that they would not need thru a consulate.

The easiest way to obtain Italian citizenship is to apply at the Consulate, in the jurisdiction of your residence.

There are circumstances in which the Consulate will grant citizenship to a person on a NEED basis. This could include being forced to transfer in an American company, being in the Italian Military(which is immediate), or to care for a close relative. However, these cases are out of the norm.

For someone to apply in Italy, he/she would have to be subjected to extra documentation and expense. For example, here is a list of things NOT NEEDED thru a consulate, but needed in Italy:

1. translations would need to be certified
2. Medical insurance
3. proof of income (bank statement), showing you can provide for yourself
4. police or FBI report (some cases)
5. Visa
6. Naturalization certificates may need an Apostille
7. Permesso di soggiorno
8. Denial of work***. I asked the consulate about working in Italy, as a means of being able to live there, while waiting for my citizenship. he told me that even if I had a job in Italy, (while not a citizen), it could be taken away from me and given to an Italian citizen, as in Italy, an Italian citizen has first preference. The person in charge of THIS website or any Consulate, will confirm it, for those who will dispute it.
There are other things also required, that are ludicrous

I don`t expect to wait much longer for my citizenship, but it is WORTH the wait in the US, so I will be able to simply go to Italy, without the worry of providing all these unnecessary "headaches".

Why on earth would anyone want to be subjected to all such indignities?

Wait for the Consulates to do their job, unless you HAVE to be there, or if you are involved with a Consulate that wants you to wait 2-3 years, in which case, you will have to suffer the indignities of applying in Italy
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Postby Anonymous » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:56 pm

Angiolo,

I beg to differ with you. The San Francisco Consulate required a certified copy of the 1920 census from me before they would proceed with my citizenship application. I had to get the red ribbon certification attached to the census and send it in before they would continue with my application. I did not need an Apostille but a certification from NARA. I really don't think any blanket statement of "at not time" or never should ever be used as the consulates differ so much. Certain consulates require translations, others do them for you, certain conuslates require all birth and death certificates of all relatives, some just require the line that you are going through. I always advise people to check with the consulate. I thought I had everything ready and then I needed a certified copy of the census. It went along with my no records letter from the local court, USCIS no records letter, and the letter from NARA. I am now on my way to Italian Citizenship.
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Postby Em » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:06 pm

From what I've read, the San Francisco consulate is particularly annoying. I showed my red ribboned census report in Newark and they just tossed it aside, and this is probably the case with most consulates.

I would totally agree with Angiolo that applying in Italy can be more frustrating than applying in the U.S. I've heard of no one who found it easier there.
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