Do Certified Census Documents need Apostille?

Gather certified copies and apostilles.

Moderator: Daniel

Postby Anonymous » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:30 pm

The very owner of this website obtained his citizenship through the San Francisco consulate, and he also has the website pertaining to ALL documents needed for Italian citizenship.

Again, AT NO TIME is a census report required by ANY consulate. It is NOT a required legal document.

However, as I said earlier, a Consular chief does have the descretion to ask for a Census report to verify an "alien status", when a Naturalization record is unavailable, or other circumstances. Again, this is rare, and the average applicant will NEVER need a census report.

You can insist all you want to, but the FACT is, a census report is not needed by any Consulate. If the consulate told you that you needed one, it is an isolated case, and NOT the normal documentation that is required
Anonymous
 

Postby Anonymous » Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:57 pm

To follow up on what I said, I sent an email to the owner of this website, asking him if it is necessary for him to 'revise' his website, by telling potential applicants of the 'extra''required' documentation, of a Census report. Since a census report is NOW required by the San Francisco Consulate according to Pascalena, and NOT other consulates, I asked him if he can revise his website to include this vital information, or at least to verify the information as to its accuracy. I also asked him to verify whether ALL census reports need to be included, or just certain ones.
I also asked him if an applicant will be denied his citizenship if he/she does not obtain a census report, even if the ancestor never took part in a census, as there were many hundreds of thousands of immigrants that never took part in a census.

I asked these vital questions, so that correct information can be given to everyone, pertaining to the required documentation. I would hate to see an Italian citizen lose his chance for obtaining citizenship, if he/she doesn`t obtain a census report that their ancestor never took part in
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:01 pm

My guess is the census report in this instance was necessary for purposes of clarification. Census data is subject to inaccuracies, but it may confirm other information.

It this case it may have been to support the contention that there were no naturalization records.
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Postby Maria » Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:54 pm

I think the section in bold is the one pertinent to this discussion.
From the Italian Consulate in San Francisco:

4) YOUR FATHER’S CERTIFICATE OF NATURALIZATION or his Italian passport and permanent resident card (“green card”).

If the above is not available, you must request the following:

A) a statement from U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, U.S. Department of Homeland Security, P.O. Box 648010, Lee's Summit, MO 64064-8010 and from the County in which he resided.

Statement must show his full name (and any other names he went by on any official documents), place of birth and date of birth, date of the naturalization, certificate number (or, if a legal alien, his permanent resident card number).

B) If the research shows no record, you are requested to double check with the “National Archives” ( www.archives.gov )requesting a full search under his name and nicknames, possible dates of birth which he may have declared. If the record is found, you will obtain from the National Archives a certified copy of his “petition for naturalization” and “oath of allegiance”. (Please note: this Office may at anytime request that you present documentation from the National Archives - in case of discrepancies - to confirm the identity reported on the certificate of naturalization) .

C) If the record is still negative, you will need to check with the CENSUS, requesting a survey report dated after your date of birth, if your father was born in Italy (www.census.org ). In the cases of categories 2,3,4 and 5 the survey report must of course be dated accordingly - i.e. covering the period of the Italian born ascendant's child's birth.

http://www.italcons-sf.org/citizenship1.htm
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Postby Anonymous » Thu Apr 27, 2006 10:57 pm

Maria, you confirmed what I said. I said that census records are NOT required documents as far as normal procedure. I also said that the Consular official has the descretion to ask for a Census record to verify the "alien status", if the naturalization record is in question.

Everything I said is completely accurate, and I stand behind it 100%. AT NO TIME is a census record a required document EXCEPT the reason I gave above. The normal applicant applying for Italian citizenship at ANY consulate, INCLUDING the San Francisco Consulate will NEVER need a Census report, EXCEPT, if the Naturalization record is in question. I must have said this how many times already.

What is there NOT understood? I don`t want to see people feel that they have to obtain a Census record as part of their "package" to be submitted to the San Francisco Consulate, as that is false and misleading.
Anonymous
 

Census Documents

Postby Anonymous » Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:50 pm

Angiolo,

You are missing my point. You said that a certified census document at no time was needed to gain Italain Citizenship. I was just trying to tell you that you should never give the advice that a document is "never " needed. In my case it was needed at the SF Consualte because they had to prove the non-naturalization of my gandfather. As you know, the consualtes differ in what they require and they can require what they need to process your citizenship. You may think a document is not needed but if I did not present the certified census report, my Italian Citizenship would not have been processed, so I guess it was needed. I followed ICGS's guidelines and everything was fine except for the census report. I do not think that ICGS has to add that to the list of required documents as it might be rare to have that requirement and not everyone needs to run to the NARA to receive a certified copy. That is why I said to check with the consulate instead of saying that you never need that type of document. Again, in my case I did. Many people read this board for advice and when you say a document is never needed, you are giving them the wrong advice. It is better to say, check with the consualte you are applying through but it is very rare that the certified census report would be required.
Anonymous
 

Postby Anonymous » Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:46 pm

pascalena. NO, I didn`t say that. perhaps you need to read my comment again, again, again, and how ever many times as necessary for you to understand what I wrote. i stand by what i said, and I won`t have you telling people they HAVE to have a Census record for the San Francisco Consulate, because it is NOT TRUE.

AGAIN AND AGAIN, EXCEPT FOR RARE CASES WHERE THE NATURALIZATION RECORD NEEDS TO BE VERIFIED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What part of this don`t you understand???? Now end it already.
Anonymous
 

Again on the census documents

Postby Anonymous » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:37 pm

Angiolo,

"AT NO TIME, is a Census record a "required" document by ANY Consulate, nor would it need an Apostille. However, there may be a rare case, where the Consular chief may accept it, as proof of "alien status", under certain circumstances. The average person would never need a census record."

That is your exact quote above where you state that a census document is not a required document. I didn't say it was required for everyone, I just said to check with the consulate to make sure that it isn't needed. Obviously, it was needed in my case, so you can't say that it is not a required document! I agree that in most cases it isn't but AGAIN you are missing my point, I said you should never give the advice that something is not required. You do not know that for sure and you can give your opinion but you should always state that you should check with the consulate!

I won't have you telling people that it isn't required because in some cases it is!
Anonymous
 

Postby Anonymous » Sat Apr 29, 2006 12:54 pm

Pascalena, you are the most ignorant person I have ever seen on here. I stand by what I wrote as 100% accurate, and I won`t have you misleading people, as your friends have done. Don`t address me anymore

For everyone else, a CENSUS RECORD is NOT a required document for your application for Italian citizenship, EXCEPT in cases where the Naturalization record is in question, in which case it is a very rare and almost unheard of occurance.
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:28 pm

OK, let me jump in for a moment. Everyone here has been so very helpful, and we each, in turn, try to help others. We all have our own experiences and our own opinions. No one is an expert and no one can predict what some bureaucrat in a consulate will ask for next. (I'll not be surprised if one day someone asks for my college transcript. :lol: )

Angiolo, you're certainly right in that the census is not required in most cases and is only rarely needed as a supportive document. The lovely young lady in Newark laughed when I presented my very impressive red-ribboned copy.

Pascalena, you're certainly right in that there are always exceptions, and in your situation the census was used to support a statement of non-naturalization.

So, guys, let it be.
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Postby Anonymous » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:52 pm

EM, thank you. And you quoted me exactly.

I think it is great that you obtained your red ribbon report. I believe if not for any other reason, that you will have a "keepsake". I also obtained my grandfather and great grandfather`s birth records from Italy, even though I did`nt need. My documents cost me much more, as many times I ordered two copies (one for myself)

I was going to quote the return email I received from this website, since it reflected what I said. However, your comment was very gracious, and I saw no need to.

If you read my comment, you will also note that I gave "exceptions", to what I said, and that exception reflected the Naturalization records. I DID NOT at any time say that a Census record was not needed or required, WITHOUT giving an exception. If I am to be quoted, I would like ALL my statement quoted, and not just in parts. I got upset, because I was misquoted several times.
Anonymous
 

Census

Postby Anonymous » Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:55 pm

Angiolo,

I see, someone challenges your advice and you resort to name calling; that is very mature. For your information, I do not tell people they need a census document to present to the consulate. I SAID in my case I needed one and you should always contact the consulate to see what they require, rather than waiting for your appointment and then stalling things even more.

You just can't admit that you are wrong and to tell people to check with the consualte. If you would read the SF Consulate website, you would see that it indeed requires a census report if naturalization cannot be certified.

You know, you don't know everything about citizenship, even though by your postings you think you do. If you did, you would know that each consualte has different requirements, just call them and see. It is always good to check with the consulate for information to stop the delay of you citizenship. I was just trying to help people avoid that delay because a person like you, told me that I didn't need a Census document and then when I went in for my appointment, I needed one. So, if I save one person the time, I have done well.

I am done speaking to you about this and I think you should watch what you say when you post on a open discussion website. There is no need to resort to name calling.

Em,

Thanks for your input. You are right but I still want people to know that it is best to check with the consualte no matter what the advice of people on this or any other website is. Thanks for all your advice and help here on this website.
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:14 pm

Angiolo, I actually got the census report because I wanted to show that my father had been using the American version of his name since he was nine years old. Didn't work, though. :shock: You're right, though; it's really nice to have it.
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Postby Anonymous » Sat Apr 29, 2006 8:37 pm

EM, since the Census report is not in itself a legal and binding document, AND since many people didn`t take part in one, i have to question whether the Consulates can deny someone citizenship based on it.

For example:. My grandfather was on the 1910, but not the 20 and 30 census. Suppose, and I mean just suppose, the 1920 or 1930 census was needed to confirm or substantiate the Naturalization record of my grandfather, and i was applying thru the San Francisco Consulate, but yet he never took part in those years?. Than what? would I be denied my citizenship rights per Jure sanguinis? the Consular official CAN ACCEPT it to substantiate the naturalization record, as I said earlier, but what if it isn`t available? than the Consulate would have to accept somethg else, but I don`t think they could deny citizenship to a person because of the absense of a census record.
Do you personally believe that the Consulate would deny citizenship based on a census record, or do you think they would look for an alternative? I believe they would look for an alternative or force the person to make an affidavit in lieu of a census record. what do you think?
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:27 am

I absolutely agree Census reports are subject to more inaccuracies than some of the "official" documents. So many of us have found errors on birth certificates, marriage licenses, etc., and these are forms that are filled out on an individual basis. So, it is unlikely that a census--even one bearing a red ribbon--will carry substantial weight.

The census has always been challenged by certain groups who believe they have been undercounted, and they are probably right. The census taker may forget to return to a house if the family initially is not at home. The family may not want to provide information and may not make themselves available. I know that my father's family appears on the 1930 census and not on the 1920 census; and with my mother's family, the situation is reversed.

I had been hoping, though, that the consulate would see my father's Americanized name on the 1930 census and accept his birth certificate as is, without my having to go through the name change process. Didn't work in Newark. I'm trying NY this week. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky.
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