Italian citizenship for everyone?

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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby zagnut » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:56 am

Very true Em. It sounds like at least one Siciliano is in denial about the mix of ethnicities, races, and cultures that came together to create his ancestry.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Elia » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:44 am

The idea of national identity and inherited nationality, which is the basis of the iure sanguinis concept, is not purely a political fiction. Although Italy was united as a single nation in modern times only in the lhe nineteenth century, her unification was the end result of a two thousand year process in which a very real and fundamental unity can be discerned. I have studied this issue over the course of many years and on that basis i would venture to make the following points. First, a distinct identity attached to the inhabitants of the Italian peninsula goes back to the time of Julius and Augustus Caesar. In the time of Julius all the land up to the Rubicon river (somewhere near Florence) was referred to as Italy and was considered sacred Roman soil. The borders of this sacred Italy in Roman law were extended by Julius and then by his successor Augustus to include all the land up to the Alps in the north, present day Nice in the West, and Istria in the East. All those free born within these borders, that is all free born Italians" ("ïtali"in Latin) were automatically by right Roman citizens. This was not the case for the subjects of Rome who were external to Italy. Italy was not a province of Rome. It was the center of empire and a province was defined as anything outside of italy. Only Italians at this time possessed a natural righ to Roman citizenship. Hence Italy and its people were a united entity with a special status vis a vis the rest of the world at the very time that Rome was building and extending the civilization that became the matrix of the Western culture. And it is among the Italians that the Latin language(later to become Italian) first spread. The subsequent division of Italy folloiwng the fall of the empire and the Barbarian invasions did nothing to erase this fundamental identity and even in the early middle ages the northern part of the peninsula was reunited for a time in what was known as the Kingdom of Italy. The papacy was the essential element that prevented the unification of Italy at the time that other nations in Ëurope such as France and Spain were coalescing (late middle ages) since the policy of the popes who ruled central Italy was based upon the need to maintain the Church's independence of any potential italian state. This required policies geared toward the continued disunity of the italians. Nonetheless, a common Italian culture was spreading throughout the peninsula and Sicily during all this period despite the radical disunity. This was due to the flowering of the renaissance and the propogation of the Tuscan language as the elite literary tongue from the thirteenth century up to the time of unification. During all this time the Italians were viewed as being one and many just like the Greeks of old who were not united and like the Germans who were only united in 1870. These two very creative nations were also, like Italy, divided by governments and by dialects. It is a big mistake to equate national identity with political unity. This error is natural for Americans who possess only the concept öf "ius solis" . American nationality is virtually devoid of the notion of ethnicity. It is based upon birth on American territory and adherence to the American constitution.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Sun Jan 10, 2010 11:58 am

"It is based upon birth on American territory and adherence to the American constitution."

The "birth on American soil" thing is currently being abused to include the children of invaders who hop across the border illegally, deposit a child here, send us the bill for the birth, and expect the child to enjoy all the benefits my tax dollars can afford. You know where the idea of being American by birth on American soil came from? SLAVES! Of course once freed these people had no country due to no fault of their own and so they were declared Americans. Those who wrote the law did not foresee an invasion from the third world.

Incidentally, I understand there are "immigrant"riots going on in Italy as we speak.
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The use of the term "immigrant"

Postby Carl » Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:54 pm

Here's an interesting article on the riots in Italy: http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLDE60906D

Note the use of the word "immigrants" to describe illegal invaders and the comparison of those who want the invaders out of their country to the Ku Klux Klan. Were the world left to short-sighted imbeciles like these who have no regard for law and order or culture and heritage, imagine the loss of pride in "self".
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby lobezno » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:08 pm

C'mon Carl, get off your xenophobic horse and smell the roses...

Count to ten and breathe, the "invaders" aren't going to hurt you, they are just people, like you and me...

BTW: The 'riots' were demonstrations that turned violent when some racist xenophobe thugs beat up some of the demonstrators (protesting living conditions) and there was a reaction to that.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:29 pm

There's really nothing to say to someone who can't wrap his mind around the difference between xenophobia and recognition of an invasion by illegals. You're a hopeless case in my opinion and clear thinking people can only hope that those who "think", if you can call that, like you remain a minority. Honestly, a "debate" between me and you would be about as fruitful as me talking to a stone.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby lobezno » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:09 pm

We all know how smart you are, Carl, much smarter than all of us... and how we can't "wrap our minds" around your f-ed up fears, misconceptions, and lies.... did I mention fears, and lies?

Thank goodness.

Go crawl under your wetted bed, s-u-c-k your thumb and cry for your Strong Daddy to come and save you from the brown boogie-men. In the meantime, those of us who aren't scared of dealing with reality will engage with the political process and try to affect humane, positive, and rational immigration policy changes.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:37 pm

You're an imbecile. What more can I say? Smarter than you? Hell boy, I've had dogs smarter than you.

Find someone in you're own league to "debate". Just don't make it one of my dogs. You'll lose.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby lobezno » Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:41 pm

Sarcasm, though it be the lowest form of humor, looks to be, sadly, above even your head.

Just be sure to take your vile hate-mongering elsewhere. It won't be tolerated here.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:06 am

[quote="lobezno"]Sarcasm, though it be the lowest form of humor, looks to be, sadly, above even your head.

Just be sure to take your vile hate-mongering elsewhere. It won't be tolerated here.[/quote]

Here's you post to me that brought this discussion down to your level:

"Go crawl under your wetted bed, s-u-c-k your thumb and cry for your Strong Daddy to come and save you from the brown boogie-men. In the meantime, those of us who aren't scared of dealing with reality will engage with the political process and try to affect humane, positive, and rational immigration policy changes."

You've actually done me a favor you know. I'd gotten what I needed from this group and now felt an obligation to give back to the group but I'm sure everyone here who might have been able to use some of what I was prepared to give back will understand that no group that would allow you in it is one that I, or anyone, should feel obligated to continue with.

So thanks. Oh! And group moderators? This "lobezno" thing is what you're left with.

Good job!
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby lobezno » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:27 pm

Don't like being called names? You sure like to dish it out, but you can't take it, huh?

I find it sad and ironic that one who claims to be so proud of his Italian identity is so ignorant of the fear, misinformation and prejudice his own Italian ancestors (and countrymen) faced in the US when they arrived. So ignorant that he repeats it with today's immigrants.

This is not the place to spread your fear and misinformation.

So bye, bye, Carl. You go all John Galt on us. I don't know if we'll make it without you, but we'll try to manage the best we can.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby zagnut » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:00 pm

Originally posted by Carl:
"Well, like I said, I had my genetics tested and for a couple of thousand years, nobody had moved from that little Mediterranean area my people were from."

Sad to see the deleterious effects of in-breeding. A little freshening of the gene-pool from outside that little area might have done you some good.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Monica » Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:25 am

Davide wrote :
> The Italian law is clear. If there is a direct unbroken line from the
> original Italian ancestor you too can be an Italian citizen. This, however,
> is not the general rule throughout the European Union. In almost all
> countries in the E.U. citizenship through the blood line is extended only
> to the second generation. Even in Italy, questions have been raised in
> Parliament concerning citizenship for people who claim citizenship through
> great, great grandfathers and beyond. Often, according to some members of
> Parliament, people who are seeking recognition of Italian citizenship, have
> never been to Italy, many don't speak Italian, frequently they know very
> little about life in Italy, and often don't even have a
> "sentimental" connection to Italy. Often, the reasons for seeking
> recognition of Italian citizenship has more to do with the economic, social
> (free heath care) and political advantages of being able to live and work
> in a country of the European Union, (not necessarily Italy) than being a
> citizen of Italy and contributing to the well being of Italia.
>
> In my case, I was born in the USA. I was recognized an Italian citizen
> through my Italian grandfather, I speak Italian, have studied her
> history, understand Italian politics and vote in Italian elections. I go
> to Italy every 3 or 4 months and plan to live in Italy for the rest of my
> life. Although each person's reasons for seeking Italian citizenship is
> different, if the question were put to a referendum on an Italian ballot, I
> would vote to extend citizenship recognition only to the second generation.
> I wonder what others think?

I can say this, I wouldnt be happy with someone outlawing us 3rd generation italian americans. I have been to Italy and Europe. 3/4 of my biological grandparents were born to Italian immigrants. I live in California and decided to go ahead and study Italian which gives up the economical advantage of learning spanish over here. I think italian is hte most beautiful language. I have mostly italian features and my cousins who are only half italian some actually look more italian than i do which makes me envious. Would love to have a natural tan with dark hair and even baby blue eyes as my one cousin has. I call my grandma Nonna. When I am around my family most of the time we talk about being italian and cook italian meals. My cousin who is even more removed from italian her daughter which is a lot more less italian than her like 1/4 has learned to call her grandparents nonna and nonno. My other cousin refers to himself on myspace as "everyone loves an italian boy" and I have a shirt as well that says everyone loves an italian girl. My family is large and spread out of teh USA my family still visits our relatives in italy. I love everything italian! I even give my grandmother a run for her memory as italian was her first langage, I ask her how do you say this and that? And she remembers. We make pasta fasol sounds like, as well make gnochios. My aunts history and genealogy reserach has made the process a lot easier to track down all these records. I plan on naming my first son Giovanni. By havining italians become citizens it will allow italian heritage to go around more. I love gelato, and Firenze.
Because of all the historical discrimination of being Italian, my generation of cousins and 3rd cousins are starting to learn what was once seen as shameful which was being Italian American.Look at the historical italian Americans that changed there name to please the american public. Dean Martin. I remember watching the Frank Sinatra movie, and his mother slapped him and said "whats wrong are you ashamed of my last name?" So thats why he is known as Sinatra.Yes it does **** me off because if only they wernt embarrassed to teach there children italian i'd know a lovely language I would of learned to make wine as my greatgrandfather did, I would be at an advantage. Of course ethnic names were destroyed as some people even got screwed because they were trying to Americanize there last names." Which has created some to have a hard time getting there italian citizenship.
But I'll tell you this if I worked 4 long years to do this it is worth it for me to get my citizenship. I did it all on my own and will be the first one to be recognized in my family. If it were not important to me and I didn't really know what being Italian is about I would of said F*** it and have given up on this long **** journey. There were times when I see myself talking myself out of not qualifying even though I do. Hell I want to take my moms maiden name, nothing special about my current last name. I think I have more right to being an Itlaian citizen than all those illegals in Italy. Theres something for you to think about.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby zagnut » Sat Feb 06, 2010 2:29 pm

Sounds like a soliloquy from a Jersey Shore script.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby azsumrg1rl » Mon Feb 08, 2010 2:24 pm

"I have mostly italian features..."

Given the variance in hair color, eye color, and skin tone in Italy, I'd like to know what you think are mostly Italian features. If you're thinking the darker skin and hair, then you're alienating a large percentage of Italians that don't fit the Americanized stereotype of what an Italian should look like.
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