IMPORTANT new citizenship law will require Italian test

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Postby Anonymous » Sun Aug 27, 2006 10:25 am

Come on you moron, translate the article I wrote!! Maybe EM believes you are honestly sincere, and maybe she is taken in by your LIE about the jure sanguinis law, but this man is far too intelligent, as my knowledge of Italian I know far exceds yours.

I already asked you to show me the sentence, where it says a Deputy "suggested" that a language test be given to jure sanguinis applicants. I have asked EM also to provide that sentence.

NEITHER of you have been forthcoming to show where it is written.

I am tired of this LIE, that any suggestion was made by ANY person in the Italian government, to include a language test for jure sanguinis applicants.

SHOW the sentence or shut up about it!!! THERE WAS NO SUCH SUGGESTION MADE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP The Horse manure!! I am here to help people and will not allow anyone to undermine the process with frivilous remarks that are untrue and never made!!
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:07 pm

Angiolo,

I didn't supply the sentence because I don't have it. To be honest, I haven't looked for it, because I don't think it's that important.

As I've said many times, Italy is still working on modifying its immigration policy (naturalization not jure sanguinis). There's much controversy about that policy among Italians and among immigrants.

Initially, the idea of a new immigration policy was to make it easier for immigrants (people currently residing in Italy) to become citizens, but then someone suggested that a test be added. This, too, has caused controversy because some Italians and some in the immigrant community have suggested that the test is a way of making it more difficult for middle eastern immigrants to become citizens--in other words, it is discriminatory.

I really don't have an opinion on this because I don't know enough about it. But that's why I was never much concerned when Giuseppe wrote about the discussion of an English test for jure sanguinis eligibility. Even if the suggestion was made, it is far from being law. Italy first needs to establish immigration law before it even begins to tackle jure sanguinis (if it ever even does so).

This has been a long thread and I've written much more than I wanted and perhaps much more than I should. My primary concern, however, was to avoid the panic that Giuseppe's initial posting seemed to cause. It may have taken a while, perhaps too long, but I think most people get the idea that although laws do change, there is no imminent danger of jure sanguinis as we know it being knocked away.

So don't worry about the sentence; I don't think it's that important.
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Postby Em » Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:39 pm

I looked; didn't find. So what have I been wasting so much time for? :cry:
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Postby Anonymous » Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:27 pm

EM,
Don`t worry about not finding IT, someone will come along and tell you that you cannot read Italian. :lol: :lol: :lol: and insist it is there. :lol:
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:52 pm

You're probably right. It's clear that YOU can read Italian. You've been telling everyone all along that is wasn't there. I made the mistake of trusting someone else's translation, and then spent valuable time arguing about the significance of something someone DIDN'T say. It just goes to prove that you have to go to the original source and do your homework.

I don't know why, and I may be wrong, but I get the strong feeling that Giuseppe really wants an Italian language requirement, but wishing doesn't make it so.
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Postby Anonymous » Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:20 pm

Well, if you recall, I did help you with a word or two. I can read Italian.

My perspective on the idea of the language is, that the Consulates stress the importance of learning the language, which as a matter of fact, they do stress it to many people.
As for the language being "forced" upon a person, who is an Italian citizen, I think it`s wrong. However, I see nothing wrong with a government sponsored language course (basic or elementary), being 'offered' to either immigrants, or citizens (jure sanguinis), who may wish to take advantage of the basic course, to help them integrate into society much easier. Then, perhaps they can also have a letter of completion of the basic course, which will also grant them reduced fees to a more advanced course in the language, should they wish to do so. However, not forced.

Surely, they can come up with some sort of agreement, which will not infringe upon someone`s rights, and designed to help new immigrants.
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Postby Anonymous » Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:38 pm

EM, this may interest you. I found this on a news website AKI. Note the date, which is AFTER the alleged date of JULY on the article which has been the bone of contention.

Rome, 18 August (AKI) - Following the apparent 'honour killing' in northern Italy last week of a young Pakistani woman, Hina Saleem, allegedly by her father, after she refused an arranged marriage, Italy's interior minister, Giuliano Amato has signalled that revisions may be needed to a citizenship bill due to be examined by the Italian parliament next month. "The sad story of Hina, teaches us a lot about citizenship: it is clear that it is not enough to require people to swear loyalty to the values of the Italian Constitution," Amato said.

"They need to uphold human rights such as respect for women, which I consider universal. A woman should have the right to choose the life she wants. We abandoned arranged marriages in Italy centuries ago," he said.

Cases such as the murder of Hina represent a problem for citizenship, that need to be "very carefully considered," Amato added.

Hina's father, who allegedly cut her throat and buried her body in the garden facing Mecca, had lived and worked in Italy legally since 1989.

Two months ago he applied for Italian citizenship. Current rules, require immigrants to have been legally resident in Italy for at least 10 years before they are eligible for citizenship.

*******The new centre-left government's citizenship bill halves this period to five years, while requiring immigrants applying for citizenship to pass an Italian language and culture test and to swear loyalty to the Italian Constitution. It also stipulates more stringent police checks to ascertain how genuinely integrated in Italy the immigrants are. *******

According to estimates by Catholic charity Caritas, which regularly monitors the presence of immigrants in Italy with the interior ministry, 900,000 out of Italy's 2.5 million immigrants could become citizens under proposed new rules. The number of applicants could rise to 1.5 million by 2008, Caritas also said.

**Note the section in asterisks, which is the latest news about the proposed "new law" by the interior ministry, and written in English, and so there is no misinterpretation of the text.
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:30 pm

Yes!!! I had heard about this, and it is what I was referring to when I was talking about the controversy over the proposed immigration law changes. The intent was initially to ease the rules, but this "honor killing" has caused many in Italy to rethink this approach. Clearly members in the Italian parliament are much more concerned about "immigration" and integrating immigrants from other cultures than than in absorbing descendents of Italians.

Giuseppe's comments were disingenuous and sometimes misleading. He gave the impression that the immigration law was a fait accompli, when in fact, there is still much debate surrounding it. There is certainly no test "in the works," constitutional, language, or otherwise. They have yet even to agree on the provisions of the proposed bill.

I think, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the section on citizenship discusses the high volume of jure sanguinis requests particularly from countries that had extensive Italian immigration. The suggestions that follow, however, seem to apply to immigrants only.

I totally agree with you that the Italian language should be studied, especially by those who hope to have their citizenship recognized. Most of us actually want to learn and will learn because Italian is a part of our cultural heritage. And I agree, no Italian citizen should be subjected to a test of any kind to demonstrate his worthiness.
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Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:38 am

EM, welcome back. haha. anyway

You are correct. The last lines refer to immigrants only, not to "Italian citizens". The very last lines speak of a few countries like Belgium, who require a language course for new immigrants. So, the minister will be asking Parliament to adopt similiar rules for those immigrating to Italy, which is to require a language and culture test.

No remark or suggstion was made in the article requiring jure sanguinis applicants to take a test, only immigrants, and that was the essense of my argument. I don`t want to see people have the wrong impression, by misquoting an article
Anonymous
 

Postby Em » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:32 am

Angiolo wrote:I don`t want to see people have the wrong impression, by misquoting an article

. . . or mistranslating it.
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Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:43 am

Yes, mistranslate, and as you know, even one word can change the meaning of a sentence. That is why I will take the time to re-read a paragraph, if I am not sure. In this case, I did several times before commenting
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Postby Em » Fri Sep 01, 2006 12:58 pm

I'm just hoping that it was a simple error--not an intent to deceive and cause unnecessary panic. This is too fine a board for that.
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Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:16 pm

Yes, especially when people make claims that Italian is their mother tongue, makes one wonder their intent.
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Postby Em » Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:35 pm

OK, now I'm seriously distressed.

Giuseppe, I was going back over some old threads to check on some information (Embassies and Consulates - Dealing with Consulates in General) and stumbled on this posting from you:
__________

Not to defend italian consuates (their main problem is being ridiculously understaffed I'd say) but I think we often have the wrong perspective, and I see many posts that I believe miss a major point.

We treat consulates as if they were US gvmt offices, but when you apply for citizenship you are just a foreigner dealing with a foreign government, until citizenship is granted.


I did some research with lawyers and there is no real complaint that you can file if you're requesting citizenship and the wait is very very long: until the citizenship is granted we are foreigners for the Italian Government, and we have no rights to enforce. Technically, to grant citizenship is a 'gift' from a sovereign entity (in this case the Italian gvmt) so they could actually change legislation any day and cancel all new applications - it is a sovereign right of any government and there's no formal complaint that we could file except the 'unsatisfied customer' stuff.


**** but that's what I learned..
So I guess we gotta bear with them hoping they don't change the legislation...
__________

Giuseppe, I have no problem with what you say, but I think that this posting gives the erroneous impression that you are yourself applying jure sanguinis. In THIS thread, however, you made it clear that you are Italian. Also, if, as you state, you have a legal degree in Italy, why was it necessary for you to do "some research with lawyers"?

Now I know this is a public forum, and no one is obligated to provide personal information, but I think it's a bit unfair to misrepresent yourself in this manner, and again I must sincerely question your motives for initiating this thread.

As an Italian, you have every right to an opinion about a process that has such a major impact on your country, and I certainly understand why you may have some reservations about jure sanguinis. But if you do, please be honest about it, and we will try to be equally honest with you.
Last edited by Em on Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:49 pm

EM, ok, you are now considered "Mystery Woman" or should I call you "Jane Doe"? hahaha. You are one smart cookie.
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