re: religious freedom banned in US?


Moderator: Daniel

re: religious freedom banned in US?

Postby ejd » Fri Sep 08, 2006 3:56 pm

jcallori wrote:I suppose if you have the patience to read this rubbish. Funny how Gabrielle lambasts the American educational system whilst barely having a grasp on English spelling and grammar. Between the musings of Gabrielle and Angiolo, you have a lot to amuse yourself with. I argue that almost nothing they claim can be supported with evidence. Prove me wrong?

"The crime rate [in the U.S.] is higher than ALL countries of the world combined."

"Education in the US is practically worthless, as students come out dumber than when they went in."

"Imagine college grad [sic] not being able to spell a simple word."

"Music? The US doesn't have even ONE decent singer, and flourish on rap"

"Movies? they cannot make a decent one. still waiting"

"I have to say that I think America has very little to offer anyone - when our ancestors came it was a different story. Now, you can not safely walk in the streets (nor allow your children too - a true tragedy) and consumerism is the ideal - teaching fine art in the schools is not a priority (no future tax dollars for government ) and the unfortunate music taste (hip-hop, sleazy dancing, rock) for all to aspire! People are more interested in rushing to work to pay for the unnecessary fourth car and new barbecue than how their neighbor are? And oh, by the way, if you are too slow on the road you may get shot!!"

"I think the new song for the US to quote our famous anthem should be "the land of the fee and the home of the slave""

"The one angst I started to have against the US, was hwen I saw a CNN news ****, showing several police officers forcing (children) on to the floor with guns pointed to their heads in the Carolinas. The children had just left their lockers and on their way to class. However, the police got a report of ***** in the school and went there guns drawn and ready. The remark by one of the officers, was "I dare you to move" while pointing his gun at a 12 year old boy, who was among entirely innocent students. This was caught on tape. the mother of the boy went to the police station screaming at the officers for pointing their weapons at innocent children, her own child among them, which she saw in horror on the news. She was arrested for "disturbing the peace" and the officers got away with their actions, which their superiors said they acted appropriately. In addition to this, I had the displeasure of reading where an officer shot a young boy (8 years old) in the stomach 3 times! I had the displeasure of reading where two officers opened fire and shot a boy (12 years old) in the back 5 times for attempting to run away, when he was called back to answer questions about a robery, which he was totally innocent (they caught the real kid). I have to say that if that was my child with a gun pointed to his head, i would have went on a cop killing spreee!! This is unheard of in Italy, and if a cop did that, he would spend years in jail!
American society is grossly deteriorated with absolutely no educational standard, high crime, and absolutely nothing to offer future generations of children, as most are ***** infested delinquents, without the slightest notion as to what morality is.
America is not the America of the time of our immigrant ancestors, and today, Americans no longer can embrace the ideals of what true freedom is, as it no longer exists in the US. Even Christmas carols are "banned" in some schools, because it upsets some other students. Christmas trees can no longer be called Christmas trees in many states, and the name was changed to "community tree", to suit others who do not like anything Christian. I used "gay parade" as an example of something that IS allowed, but a religious parade is not.
The US has in essense become a police state, with the power to shoot the most innocent of people and to arrest those without warrant and held for an undtermined amount of time without charge, (hardly democractic) and every bit of totalitarian and imperialist.
The finishing touch is the recent passing of a law in Texas, but soon to be nationwide, which BANS and makes it a criminal offense to give a sandwich to a homeless person. Texas will give you a $2000 fine!!!!
A person would have to be blind not to see what America has become. and it certainly is not a place where I want to raise my children. I want my children to have a good education (not available in the US), medical care, and opportunities, which are not available to Americans. In addition, I want them to grow up in a good enviornment and among good decent people, and Italy fits that discription perfectly.
To top it all off, Americans went to Iraq, an innocent country, and slaughtered over a 100,000 innocent civilians, not to mention the use of napalm and other chemocal weapons. ALSO CAUGHT ON TAPE!! by none other than Giuliana Sgrena, an Italian reporter, who, Italy has proven that Americans targted her.
The US has the death penalty and the ONLY western democratic nation to have it! The list can go on, but America is not the place to be, and I for one, believe it is a terrorist country. and 98% of Italians in Italy are against the invasion of Iraq.
There is not ONE decent good word I can give about the US, because I see nothing good about it, in any sense
As for giving up citizenship, my loyalty will always be with Italy, and if required, I would not hesitate to give up the American one. My flag has become the one with identical vertical bands of Green, white, and red."

"Ok, I think it is best to stay on the subject, as this is not a political forum. Of course the miscellaneous forum can be used to 'vent'. I will just point out one thing. While many Americans, like Em believe that many people want to come to the US, there is over 115,000 applications by Americans wanting to immigrate to canada. Over 500,000 people want to immigrate to Italy. Over 200,000 people want to immigrate to Ireland. So, while there is many who want to come to the US, very few come from Europe, if any. Most are from Mexico, India, Pakistan, and Asian countries. Right now, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela, and a few other South American countries are seeking Italian citizenship, because they have ancestors born there. There is a reason for this, and it is not for a job opportunity and simple dual citizenship. Italy affords the most quality lifestyle available, in the western civilized world, and no other country has the enormous freedoms and rights that Italy has for their citizens, and these rights and freedoms are what is drawing people from all over the world to Italy`s shores. Last year alone, Italy had over 2 1/2 million immigrants reach its shores, but of course 300,000 of those were illegals. many of these also were Muslim, because they found out that they could wear their headscarves in the classroom, and Italians could have their morning prayers and crucifixes on their walls. Italy actually adopted a "law" that demanded crucifizes be removed from classroom walls, but teachers across the country refused even under threat of being arrested. The result was that the "law" was never implimented, but yet is still on the books. This is called religious freedom, in which no country, legislator, Senator, or anyone has the right to infringe upon, and Italians (at least the ones in Italy) will not tolerate their freedoms being denied. and I am one of them."

"Angiolo, thanks for the reminder. In my small comune, The 3 schools that are there, all have crucifixes on the walls, and the students have morning prayer, just as Americans USED to have years ago, before religious freedom was banned in the US. You are correct also that Muslims are allowed their headscarves, and I have seen Jewish wear their star and skull caps. religious identity is important, and I agree, that no Country legislator has the right to ban anything pertaining to ones worship of God.
As for all the other things, I mentioned, it is the truth, and the information is readily available on the internet. That is, for those who have their eyes open. That is all I have to say on the subject. By the way, I sent you an email. Ciao"

"Third, and most importantly, the US could never have the rights and freedoms enjoyed by Italians, and is the basis of why many millions of people are going to Italy from all around the world. Italy has become the most sought after country to live in, for its beauty, education, people, and overall culture and way of life. The US has nothing to offer anyone anymore, and is an obstacle in the way of many people`s pursuit of happiness. You keep the American citizenship, but it has no value for me and many thousands more."

I would have to say that some of this is over the top. Every country has its good points and bad points. No place is perfect.

I agree that American culture is too consumer/materialism oriented, but despite that we have made a lot of good movies and turned out good singers/songwriters. I could name a lot. However, with media consolidation in the US, we get vastly narrowed play lists and little variety on commercial radio and less willingness pf media companies to invest in things like independent films.

I totally disagree that religious freedom "has been baned" in the US. I had a much longer response on this here, but I just edited it out because I don't think it's necessary to carry the discussion any further at this point...
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Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 08, 2006 4:23 pm

I won`t get into this argument about religion.

I would like to tell a short story though.

I was living in a small town in northern Nabraska. The town had a population of about 540. A small farming community. They had 2 churches. One Baptist, the other Methodist. The Catholic church was closed own about 10 years ago (lack of funds).

Anyway, while there, I was a member of the city council. One Christmas (2 years ago), we were all asked to come up with a Christmas theme for City Hall. I suggested a Manger scene outside and lighted, in front of a large oak tree, and maybe some Christmas lights on the tree. The responce I got surprised me. "the tree lights don`t sound bad, but we can`t have a manger scene". I asked why not, and the reply was that no public display of any religious objects were allowed.

The town used to have the manger scene 20-30 years ago, but now banned. Also, just this past year, I visited the town to see friends, and a Christmas tree is also now banned.
While some or many will agree with this, I am sorry, but I don`t.
I happen to like the scenes, trees, etc, and I guess when I move to Italy, this will not be an issue. Somehow, I doubt the Italians would even ALLOW a government official to tell them, they cannot display a religious item. Italians did not allow the government to enforce the ban on prayer or the display of crucifixes on walls. they flat out refused to abide by the law.
I guess if it is not important in your life, then of course you wouldn`t care. But for those who appreciate a tree, manger, etc, I guess they will have to move away and find a country that where it is observed.
As for prayer in school, I am an advocate of this also, as I do believe the banning of prayer in school has led to a huge deterioration in American society, since the time it was banned.
That is my opinion, which nobody can change, and not subject to a debate. I am Catholic, and as such am totally against the ban on display of images. In Italy, the religious festivals are constant, and that sort of lifestyle pleases me.

Postby Em » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:12 pm

Lele, I understand that you are Catholic; I am too. And while I also love seeing Christmas trees (which BTW has really little to do with Christianity) and manger scenes and love to sing Christmas carols, I think it's important to remember that not everyone is Catholic or even Christian.

If a manger scene is important to me I can find it in a church. But is it fair for me to expect my local (state or federal) government to display an image that is a reflection of only my religion? Non Christians have beliefs too, and it's impossible to acknowledge every one of them. So in the interests of fairness and adherence to the constitution, which mandates a separation of church and state, religion should be kept in the churches the synogogues, the mosques, etc. In this way people can celebrate their own beliefs with people who share those beliefs.

I know I'm probably not changing anyone's mind here, but why is it so important that students say prayers in school? Why can't they say them at home before school, after school, before bedtime, etc. Why is it the responsibility of government to make sure students are religious. As a teacher, I have a responsibility to teach my subject and also to try to instill in my students the importance of ethical and moral behavior. Do you really expect me to ensure that they are religious as well?

If you are living in Philadelphia, I'm sure you've seen religious and cultural celebrations and festivals in the Italian and other ethnic communities of that city. No one has a problem with that because they are not government sponsored. No one has banned religious images in Philly; they've only been banned from public institutions and rightly so.

I know you don't agree with me, Lele, and that's ok. Crucifixes may still be displayed in Italian schools, but don't be too surprised if this changes one day. More and more people are immigrating to Italy, many from non-Catholic and even non-Christian nations. If the EU expands to some of the eastern European countries that have applied for admission, this "uniformity" of religion will change even more rapidly.

Already, divorce in Italy is not only possible, but increasingly common. And many young Italians, like many young Americans, live together before marriage. In fact, there is an advice column in the Corriere della Sera that discusses some of these issues. I've copied an excerpt of subjects below:

Messaggi in primo piano annullamento - maria
residenza coniugi - Tiziana
chattare è colpa grave? - Rossana P.
Eredità da divorziati - fabio
matrimonio all italina - tano
confessione - ottavio63
Divorzio breve - Ateo
trasferimento - claudio
straniera - mihaela

Ultimi messaggi pagamenti ici - tonia
tra religioso e non religioso - sara
comunione o separazione? - nini
Un padre per tre... o solo per una!!! - Alfonso
Sub-affittanza - Aldo P.
coppia di fatto - giovanna
tossicodipendenza - Loredana
L'assegna di mantenimento se il figlio va in vacanza con il padre? - Alexia
futura convivenza - irene

This is not an insult to Italy; it's only evidence that Italy, like every other country in the world, is changing. I hope you find what you're looking for, and perhaps you will in some of the more isolated communes. But Italy, is, for better or for worse, a modern country.
Last edited by Em on Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ejd » Fri Sep 08, 2006 5:45 pm

I agree EM. Kids can pray in school all they want-- privately. I did. What's not allowed is for the school to start making decisions as to what prayer(s) are going to be said.

Lele's story does not mean that there is a loss of religious freedom in the US. Whether or not there is a Christmas display at city hall doesn't affect my or anyone else's celebration of the holiday. I don't feel at all threatened by not having such displays in public areas, at schools, or wherever because I can put such a display up in my own yard or see one at my church. Furthermore, if you are going to allow the displays of one religion on public property, then you have to allow it for ALL of them.
There is NO loss of religious freedom until the government tries to control such displays on PRIVATE property.

If we are going to have prayer in school, than ALL prayers are going to have to be allowed to be said-- Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan, Wiccan, Ba'Hai (sp?), Native American, etc, etc, ad infinitum. I heard an NPR interview once with some high school students in Texas, they were asked if school-led prayer is permitted what prayers should be said? The response(paraphrased): we're taught that Jesus Christ is the savior, so it should be a Christian prayer. When this is the attitude, then religious freedom becomes threatened.
Last edited by ejd on Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Anonymous » Fri Sep 08, 2006 6:53 pm

Lele, what you witnessed is the infringement of religious rights, denied to those who WANT to have a display. This country had for over a hundred years, religious celebrations, Christmas trees, Christmas carols, and all kinds of Christmas celebrations. That is no longer the case, as a few American (what i call athiests), have infringed upon the rights and priviliges of American freedoms.
I won`t argue the fact either Lele, but I agree with you.

All I can say is, YOU BELONG IN ITALY, where your rights and freedoms are guaranteed and will not be changed. When you get your citizenship, consider living in Italy, and witness for yourself the practically every day religious festivals, patron saint holidays, and all kinds of manger scenes, statues, Christmas trees (not community tree or other false name), precibos, and even fireworks set up at Christmas time. at the Vatican, and in many public Piazze across the country, you will see all sorts of manger scenes, and public celebrations of the birth of Christ.
Go to Italy. You will enjoy life much better

Postby Em » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:03 am

Angiolo, you seem to be a decent person who has been helpful to many people (including me); and for this I thank you.

I'm sorry, though, that you can't understand that what is beautiful and wonderful to you (and perhaps to me, to ejd, to Jordan), may not be so wonderful to people who are not Catholics. I'm surprised that such a generous man, is not so generous in terms of religion. I don't understand why you think that your own beliefs are all that matters.

But I won't argue with you any more, because what you believe, what I believe, what any one else believes, is not likely to change. One thing I do believe is that you will be happy in Italy, especially if you choose to reside in a small southern commune. I think you might find things a bit different in the larger cities (and perhaps even the larger communes) in the northern part of the country.

My own family, and that of my husband, live in Campania, and although I don't find it quite as bucolic as described by Gabrielle, there is a slower pace to life. What I do see, however, is that many of the younger generation (including my nephews' children) choose to migrate to parts north after they complete their educations.

This does not mean they don't love their homes but rather that their opportunities are considerably more limited there. It also may explain why the small communes of southern Italy maintain more of the traditions of the past. The educated youth often leave; their parents and grandparents are left behind.

I do believe that Italy is changing, and I think that southern Italy is gradually becoming more and more like northern Italy. You may not agree with me on this, but then we don't agree on a lot of things, and I'm OK with that. :)
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Postby Anonymous » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:22 am

Angiolo, Yes, I am old enough to remember the way it used to be in the US. I agree that religious freedom has been infringed on.
You may be right that I should live in Italy permanently. I do want to live there, but wasn`t sure how things are to any extent. I have only been there once, and I can speak a few coherent words and sentences in Italian. I was asking for information about liivng in Italy, but nobody has provided that yet.
I do have a question for you, since you live in Chicago about education there. I was reading where over 300 children (in one school) are denied an education because of being poor, as some parents put it. Also, that across the city, the number is around 2-3 thousand. what is going on? I never heard of this before

Postby Anonymous » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:16 am

Ciao Lele. Living in Italy and visiting as a tourist is entirely different. When you become an Italian citizen, you will enjoy more freedoms than you can imagine. Don`t worry about the language gap, as you will pick it up. But, there is a 'free' language course for new arrivals of immigarnts, but you can take the course also. I think it is designed to get you started in the work force

Postby ejd » Sat Sep 09, 2006 9:21 am

EM... you're so good at writing clear, calm, level-headed posts. I agree with you totally.

P.S. If the government were to ever encroach on the PRIVATE display and expression of religion, then I will worry about losing religious freedom.
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Postby Em » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:31 pm

Thank you, ejd; I appreciate your kind words. If the U.S. ever began to infinge on anyone's right to privately express his religion, I'd be worried too. I'm not too concerned, though, because we seem to be headed in the opposite direction--that is, we encourage the private expression of everyone's religion. The U.S. is as PC as a country can get, sometimes to the point of even irritating ME (and that can be pretty hard to do :D )

One thing I do try to do is imagine what it would be like to be a Catholic living in Israel or in Iran. I'm sure I would be uncomfortable living in either of those places because I would not feel that I fit in. I probably would be a bit resentful, too, because I might be forced to adhere to the standards of a religion I don't believe in. I can't even imagine what it would be like to be forced to dress like a Muslim woman. I'd be thinking: "Wait a minute--I'm Catholic; why are you forcing me to adhere to your religious beliefs and standards?"

To me, true religious freedom is the right to practice your own religion in any manner you wish (providing it hurts no one else) and the freedom for everyone else to do likewise.

The U.S. government has never stopped me from practicing Catholicism; I'm free to celebrate my holy days privately, and display my beliefs publicly. I can leave work early to get ashes on Ash Wednesday, I don't have to work on Good Friday, and Christmas appears to be a holiday for everyone. I don't need a crucifix in my school to tell me I should be a good Catholic, and if one were ever required to be displayed, I would be very sad for my Jewish and Muslim students.
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Postby Anonymous » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:50 pm

Ironic that you mentioned Iran and Israel. Hmm. I know you did not mention Iraq, but I cannot help but mention though, that Tariq Aziz, was a Catholic practicing his religion in Iraq, with the blessings of saddam Hussein, and was never bothered by any Muslim. In fact there were Jews in Iraq under Saddam. No religion was ever questioned, and everyone had the freedom to practice his or her religion under Saddam. This all changed after the US inavded Iraq, and now everyone is subject to attack
In Isreal, the Catholics can hold services in Jerusalem, alongside the Jewish. I know this for fact, as I have been in both Isreal and Iraq just before the US attacked Iraq. I was in Iraq from Oct 2002-Jan 2003, for a pilgrimage. At this time, we were told that we should leave because our safety could not be guaranteed. I felt my safety was threatened by Americans, not the Iraqi government or its people.
In Isreal, Catholics have parades symbolic of their religion, and carry precibos in Bethlehem and other cities, especially along the Sea Of Galillie
Iraq also had their own religious parades, and Tariq took part in the festivities in Baghdad.
I find it strange that you did not mention this, since you are aware of the religions in the region

Postby Anonymous » Sat Sep 09, 2006 12:58 pm

lele, you left something out. When you mentioned the attack on Iraq by the US, you left out the word "illegal", and you forgot to mention Bush should be tryed for war crimes.
I am sure it was just an oversight.
Amazing how even Iraqis had religious freedom, but Americans cannot, and yet we are told we had to liberate them and bring them freedom. hahaha. I am so glad you were there to witness it. funny. very funny. I was at walamrt earlier, and there were VFW outside with small flags and cans to put money in. On the cans was "support our marines". While passing one of them said "care to support our troops"? and I just gave him a dirty look, and kep walking, refraining for a few choice words

Postby Em » Sat Sep 09, 2006 4:08 pm

Surely you're not saying, Lele, that you are NOT permitted to practice your religion in the U.S. I think I noticed more than a few Catholic churches the last time I was in Philadelphia, and people actually were permitted to attend services in them. Philadelphia must be an incredibly enlightened city. Religious parades? You know, I think they have them too; public streets are even closed for them. The key is that they are Church, not government, sponsored.

Actually, I am absolutely amazed that Catholics are permitted to attend Catholic services in Israel; that is, of course, impossible in the U.S. (except in Philadelphia) if I am to believe you and Angiolo. It's funny, but Catholic services are still being held in NJ, too; and people are even permitted to attend them.

But tell me, Lele, were crucifixes in the schools of Iraq; were they in the schools of Israel? Did they sing Christmas carols in their schools? Why then do you expect this in American schools, especially since you hold up these two countries as examples of tolerance.

And just in case you and Angiolo are unaware of this: Italy is a republic, not a theocracy. The reason I mentioned Iran is because that country IS a theocracy, and quite frankly, it would not be among my top choices of places to live.

In fact, American history gives us several examples of theocratic government. The Puritan society in Massachusetts was one. People were required by law to attend religious services, to abstain from work on Sunday, to tithe to the church. Would have been tough living there if you were Catholic (and if you were a witch, but actually they probably thought Catholics were witches).

But then, of course, that's not what you want. That government endorsed an extreme form of Calvinism; you want one that supports YOUR religion--crucifixes and prayers in the schools, the government displaying religious symbols that reflect YOUR religious beliefs, etc. etc. How very open minded of you.

Sorry, ejd, I know I should have responded in a more restrained manner, especially after your lovely compliment. :D
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Postby Anonymous » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:15 pm

Lele, sorry, I just realized your question about the school. Yes, as you said, there is currently over 300 children DENIED the right to an education in one of the schools. There are a couple thousand children denied an education in all the schools in Chiacgo.
The reasons vary, but they are passing blame one to another, and then blaming the federal government, (which is true also, since they cut funding for education).
A neighbor of mine asked me to take her and her son to the local school, as she didn`t drive or have a car. She wanted to enroll her child in school. She has been trying to get a job, and her husband was already out looking. They came from Missouri a couple weeks back. Their English is limited, but they are US citizens (not recent immigrants). Anyway, I went in with her, and sat down waiting. She told the principle that she wanted to enroll her son. The principle, said that her son needed to have a physical to enroll in school. The woman said she could not afford a doctor, and the principle gave her a copy of various medical clinics, where she could have this done, and said several were "low cost" and possibly "free" for low income.
We left. She then asked me, if I would take her to the clinic/s, and i suggested that she call around first.
First call (she used my phone). she called a clinic, who actually offered a FREE physical, but unfortunately she lived JUST OUTSIDE the area. asked how much and was told $150. next call. If she could prove that she had no income (which she could), they would give her son a physical for free, BUT, the earliest appointment was just over 1 month away. She didn`t like that because she wanted her son to start school right away, and din`t want him to miss any days. She called and called, and got the same reply, which was an appointment 3-4 weeks. She calls the school and tells the principle her problem with the schedules, and tells the principle that her son DID HAVE a complete physical done in Missouri, LESS than a month ago, and an UPDATED immunization record.
The principle tells her. "sorry, it has to be an Illinois doctor". The woman asks why, and is told "that`s the rules". I witnessed the beligerent attitude. Then, the woman asks that her son`s health record be recognized until she could get him to an Illinois doctor, but that she wanted him to start school. the answer was no and conformed by the school NURSE.
Finally, she makes an appointment and asks a family member to lend her $15 (lowest amount she could find and in short notice). She once again asks me to take her, and I did. She gets the physical done for her son, and she has this paper in hand, grinning ear to ear, saying "now my son go in school". she is happy, only to be once again disappointed.
She returns to the school (I am with her), and she is told "good, now all we need is for him to have his uniforms and gym clothes, and assignment books, and he is all set".
The womn tells (once again) that she has no money for uniforms, and if she could give her some time (like 1 month) she may be able to purchase some. answer? NO, ALL students must be in uniform, before they can enroll in class. She asks how much, and is told $15 for dress pants, and maybe $10 for dress or polo shirts, and about the same for the gym clothes.
The woman asks if there is any organization or program which can assist her in buying the clothes. Answer? NO, but you can purchase possibly a set of gym clothes, which other children have outgrown, and for a small donation to the school. (she had no money, and of course the principle knew this).
This was the second stumbling block, BUT NOT THE END of her ordeal.
Finally, after 3-4 days of crying and begging family, she manages to buy 2 shirts and one pants uniforms.
Back to the school AGAIN.
This time, well very good, you bought the clothes and have the health record. fine. now, all we need is proof of address and your child is all set to start class TODAY!. the woman asks "what do you need"? and the prinicple says we need to see some form of ID, or 3 bills with your address on it. Since she just moved to Illinois, she had no updated ID, only her Missouri (state issued ID). that is fine, but need something with current address. She had nothing with her, but was told she needed a utility bill, bank statement with address, or other proorf. We left (now 5-6 days after school started). she gathered her Lease agreement, her temporary check account book (no address, since new account), and a letter, thanking her for choosing "ComEd, electric co). we return to the school. Sorry, we cannot accept the bank account, as it does not have your address on it. We can accept the ltter from the electric company, but you still need two more. She pulls out the lease, and is told Sorry, we have had people buy lease agreements at wallmart and fill them out, so we cannot accept it. Once again, the child is not allowed to enroll in school. The mother is in tears and then screams (what happened to the NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND SPEECH BY OUR PRESIDENT???).
result? the child still has not enrolled in school for lack of address, and funds. She had to take the clothes back in order to repay her family, since they also were poor.
Even more sad, is the fact that her son was on the honor roll in mIssouri (4 years straight), and he was supposed to start the 5th grade this year, and was hoping for the honor roll, every year? that DREAM is now SHATTERED, because he is not allowed to enroll in school for various reasons.
The programs that are available to assist with a FREE physical, are either designed to help those within a certain area, or are so backlogged, that an appointment is set up in weeks or a month.
However, her problem was not confined to just a physical, as she did manage to get one cheap enough. her problem was the lack of proper address and insufficient funds for uniforms.
The woman`s ordeal was not unique. for one of the reasons shown, there are currently over 300 children denied enrollment in HIS school, but 2-3thousand city wide.
So, at least in the Chicago area, there are thousands of children who are being denied an education. Who do you wish to blame? I already heard all the excuses.
No federal funding, inadequat federal funding, all mothers are drunks, she should leave the state and move, she should sue in court. AH YES, sue in court. There are currently 85 court cases, with parents petitioning the court to allow their child in school. ONLY IN AMERICA!!!!!!
Oh I know, lets blame the parents. That is also one of the excuses!!!!
I am quite sure that people like EM will somehow blame these thousands of parents and not place blame on the SYSTEM.

Lele, I witnessed this myself, and have spoken for several parents, whose English is limited. So yes, you heard correctly about the denial of an education. and that poor kid wanting to be on the honor roll, just broke my heart. His DREAM is shattered, and no longer possible. Another example of the shameful acts in this country

Postby Maria » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:22 pm

Angiolo wrote: [...] and all kinds of manger scenes, statues, Christmas trees (not community tree or other false name), precibos, and even fireworks set up at Christmas time. [..]

Lele wrote: [...] In Isreal, Catholics have parades symbolic of their religion, and carry precibos in Bethlehem and other cities, especially along the Sea Of Galillie

I've been following this discussion but I'm lost at the meaning of the word quoted above in bold. Can someone please explain to me what are precibos? :?
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