An unusual case

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

Moderator: Daniel

An unusual case

Postby Sunflower » Sat May 16, 2009 11:12 pm

Hello,

If someone can help, I would greatly appreciate it.

My father was born in Italy in 1933. His father was born in Italy and went to America to find work. His father became an American citizen before my father was born. His mother was an Italian citizen.

My father came to the United States in the 1950s. He claims he has dual citizenship, and he periodically receives mail from his hometown in Italy to vote.

Does my dad have dual citizenship?

Thank you.
Sunflower
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 11:06 pm

Re: An unusual case

Postby LookingEast » Sat May 16, 2009 11:27 pm

Hello

I'm not an expert on unusual cases, but it looks to me as if both you and your father have it. I believe that the 1912 law establishing jure sanguinis (citizenship by inheritance) allows a child to inherit citizenship from his mother if he was born in Italy (but not if he was born outside Italy).

It looks as if your father has received Italian citizenship from his mother in 1933 and that he has kept it for his whole life, including the day that you were born. So that would bring yourself into the picture.
LookingEast
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:48 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: An unusual case

Postby zagnut » Sun May 17, 2009 12:34 am

From the 1912 law:
Art. 1.
– E’ cittadino per nascita:
1. Il figlio di padre cittadino;
2. Il figlio di madre cittadina se il padre è ignoto o non ha la cittadinanza
italiana, né quella di altro Stato, ovvero se il figli non segue la cittadinanza
del padre straniero secondo la legge dello Stato al quale questi appartiene
(2);
3. Chi è nato nel [Regno] se entrambi i genitori o sono ignoti o non hanno la
cittadinanza italiana, né quella di altro Stato, ovvero se il figlio non segue la
cittadinanza dei genitori stranieri secondo la legge dello Stato al quale
questi appartengono.
Il figlio di ignoti trovato in Italia si presume fino a prova in contrario nato nel
[Regno].


I believe the 1912 law states Sunflower's father could not inherit Italian citizenship from GF because GF renounced Italian citizenship when he naturalized in the US prior to his son's birth. Sunflower's father could not inherit Italian citizenship from GM because GF was not unknown nor stateless.

IMO, the Sunflower's father was not born with Italian citizenship. Sunflower is entitled to citizenship via 3 residing years in Italy.
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Re: An unusual case

Postby Em » Sun May 17, 2009 9:17 am

I agree with zagnut, but because the father continues to receive voting documents from his comune, he may well have fallen between the cracks. The only way to be certain is to check with his comune. If he is registered as an Italian citizen, you can probably be registered in the comune as well.
User avatar
Em
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:57 am

Re: An unusual case

Postby zagnut » Sun May 17, 2009 11:02 am

Yes, possibly GF's naturalization in US was never registered with the Italian consulate in the US. The comune may not know GF naturalized in US either. It really is an unusual case!

BTW, this scenario sounds familiar. Was it on another forum? I remember the father claiming citizenship and getting voting stuff from Italy. Possibly Expats?
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Re: An unusual case

Postby LookingEast » Sun May 17, 2009 12:52 pm

The excerpt which Zagnut posted indicates that your father should have received Italian citizenship from his mother only if one of these circumstances apply:
1) Your grandfather could not be determined.
2) Your grandfather was stateless.
3) Your father was otherwise not entitled to a citizenship outside Italy at the time of his birth.

There are numerous possibilities here, and it is a special case.

It is possible that your father is fully entitled to Italian citizenship and not entitled to American citizenship. Regarding American law, I have read about cases where the child of an American father born outside the U.S. could not be considered a U.S. citizen unless the father filed an affidavit of paternity with the U.S. government before the child became an adult. To evaluate this possibility, you will need to research the applicable U.S. laws in effect during your father's lifetime. If your father was thus born and raised without American citizenship, the third circumstance above may have allowed your father to receive Italian citizenship from his mother.

Then, there is the possibility that your grandfather was stateless. Did he return to Italy and renounce his U.S. citizenship to the American representation in Italy? Did he meet conditions prior to 1933 that allowed Italian citizenship to be returned to him?

UPDATE

I thought of another possibility:

Your father could have been solely American during childhood, and later become Italian by applying for Italian citizenship after he came of legal age.

In the 1950s, the U.S. regarded the acquisition of another citizenship to be an event which automatically terminated American citizenship. In the 1960's, the Supreme Court began to reverse this policy. These rulings may possibly have had retroactive effect, allowing your father to have two nationalities from America's perspective.

If your father became Italian by naturalization after coming of age, you may want to find out whether Italy would have permitted your father to remain Italian while participating in U.S. citizenship rights.

These are questions to discuss with an Italian lawyer if they become a problem in the application.
Last edited by LookingEast on Sun May 17, 2009 4:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
LookingEast
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:48 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: An unusual case

Postby zagnut » Sun May 17, 2009 1:16 pm

We're getting into silly season now.
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Re: An unusual case

Postby LookingEast » Sun May 17, 2009 1:29 pm

True enough.

I don't think, if I was Sunflower, that I would actually try to figure these things out or explain them to the consulate.

If Sunflower's father is recognized as an Italian citizen, an application for Sunflower's Italian citizenship should be relatively inexpensive and easy to make. Whatever "crack" through which Sunflower's father may have slipped would probably not reveal itself.
LookingEast
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:48 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: An unusual case

Postby LookingEast » Sun May 17, 2009 2:20 pm

Sunflower, If I was you, I would be hesitant to discuss your father's U.S. citizenship with the consulate.

I would acquire his Italian birth record and the necessary letter from USCIS stating that he never naturalized, and then I would avoid mentioning his U.S. citizenship.

If you mention that your father was a dual citizen since his birth in Italy, the officer should detect a crack. Those folks are crazy smart, trust me on that. Then, the crack could be as preposterous to find as I mentioned before.

I don't know why it takes so long to process jure sanguinis applications. The consulate's investigatory methods are a mystery. Hopefully they won't prod too deeply and investigate old census records on-line, which probably state that your father was American at the time of the census.

At least, like I stated before, there may be little to lose by making the application. You don't have four generations of documents to collect, for example.
LookingEast
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:48 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: An unusual case

Postby Tiffany » Sun May 17, 2009 2:30 pm

They will ask Sunflower how her father is living in the States without a greencard. If your father is an Italian citizen without dual American/Italian citizenship, you will need to furnish his Italian passport and US greencard. If he is without greencard and/or Italian passport, they will ask questions and his dual citizenship will probably come out.
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: An unusual case

Postby Em » Sun May 17, 2009 2:48 pm

The comune may well do that once Sunflower asks to be registered. But they usually ask for this type of confirmation if they want to determine whether or not someone is indeed an Italian citizen. That they have been sending him voting information for years seems to indicate that they already accept him as a citizen; and they may simply go with that. It's certainly worth a shot.
User avatar
Em
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:57 am

Re: An unusual case

Postby Tiffany » Sun May 17, 2009 3:20 pm

Sorry, to clarify, I was talking about doing it via the Consulate. If it is done via comune, I think Sunflower stands less chance of detection.
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: An unusual case

Postby zagnut » Sun May 17, 2009 4:34 pm

LookingEast wrote:Sunflower, If I was you, I would be hesitant to discuss your father's U.S. citizenship with the consulate.

I would acquire his Italian birth record and the necessary letter from USCIS stating that he never naturalized, and then I would avoid mentioning his U.S. citizenship.

If you mention that your father was a dual citizen since his birth in Italy, the officer should detect a crack. Those folks are crazy smart, trust me on that. Then, the crack could be as preposterous to find as I mentioned before.

I don't know why it takes so long to process jure sanguinis applications. The consulate's investigatory methods are a mystery. Hopefully they won't prod too deeply and investigate old census records on-line, which probably state that your father was American at the time of the census.

At least, like I stated before, there may be little to lose by making the application. You don't have four generations of documents to collect, for example.


I agree- much of application processing time entails consulate investigators poring over census records and the like. No telling what they might turn up.
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Re: An unusual case

Postby Em » Sun May 17, 2009 4:39 pm

The consulates seem to get a bit suspicious when an applicant claims that an ancestor never naturalized. Without doubt, it's much easier to apply when your ancestor did naturalize, assuming, of course, he naturalized at the right time. Maybe that's why some consulates are asking for census records even though they are unreliable indicators.
User avatar
Em
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:57 am

Re: An unusual case

Postby zagnut » Sun May 17, 2009 4:56 pm

Here's the other case I was thinking of- details are different but the Italian relative thought he was getting voting stuff from the comune (didn't know which comune though?!)
http://expattalk.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/2620055123/m/29110671/p/1
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Next

Return to Qualifying

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests