NYC Consulate Denial

Share information about your experiences with the citizenship department of a particular Italian (or other) embassy or consulate.

Moderator: Daniel

NYC Consulate Denial

Postby valentinaroan » Mon May 18, 2009 3:58 pm

In short, our appointment could not have gone worse. It was scheduled for 10am, and my Dad and uncle and I got there about 15 minutes early. We went up to the second floor, and were seen immediately. The entire appointment was conducted in Italian, because my Dad is nearly fluent. First the consular official asked for my GGGF's birth certificate from Italy, and then his marriage certificate. These were acceptable. Then we handed over his death certificate, and apparently there was problem because when the issuing city made some minor corrections to the document, they did not stamp it and say corrected. He put the document aside. Keep in mind, it's a full form, certified copy with and apostille, and no discrepancies. O.k., so first hitch of the day. After that we moved onto the naturalization records. We gave the officer the certificate of non-existence, and the letter of No record from NARA. O.k. Then he asked for census records. Luckily, I had printed them out from ancestry.com, and the fact that they were not certified was o.k. But because the census record had our last name ending in an 'e' instead of an 'a', he said that we needed to get a new certificate of non-existence with the name from the census. Hmmm. Then, we moved onto my GGF, who was born in the U.S. in 1894. As I posted on Expats,

"We thought we qualified under:
-GGGF, b. in Italy 1860, immigrated to the U.S. in 1887, and never naturalized
-GGF, b. in U.S., 1894
-GF. b. in U.S. 1933
-Dad. b. in U.S. in 1961
-Uncle, b. in U.S., 1968
-Me, b. in U.S., 1990

However, the consular official rejected us because my GGF was born (in the U.S.) prior to 1912. I am so confused and discouraged. I was under the immpression that because my GGGF never naturalized, we still qualified. Thought? I looked at the law, and, I didn't see anything that explained this. Am I missing something major? I guess I am. Thanks for the help. It's pretty discouraging after all that work."


So that was it. End of the meeting.

Luckily, I qualify on my Mom's side, so I am going to make another appointment and hope for the best. Right now I'm pretty upset. My family worked so hard for this.
valentinaroan
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Connecticut, U.S.A

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby penguindump » Mon May 18, 2009 4:27 pm

That's awful news :(

I wonder why being born in the US prior to 1912 is a reason for denial :?
penguindump
 
Posts: 599
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:34 am
Location: Bay Area, CA

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby zagnut » Mon May 18, 2009 5:15 pm

I think they're taking the view that concurrent jure sanguinis Italian citizenship and jure soli US citizenship wasn't possible until spelled out in Art 7 of the 1912 law. :

Art. 7.
– Salvo speciali disposizioni da stipulare con trattati internazionali il cittadino
italiano nato e residente in uno stato estero, dal quale sia ritenuto proprio cittadino
per nascita, conserva la cittadinanza italiana, ma divenuto maggiorenne o
emancipato, può rinunziarvi
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby Em » Mon May 18, 2009 5:18 pm

Valentina, I'm so sorry. It seems as though they were bending over backwards in an attempt to deny your application. I think they may have heard of the 1912 ruling, did not understand how it is being interpreted in the other consulates, and came up with their own interpretation . They are saying, as Zagnut notes, that if you were born before the 1912 law, you could not inherit citizenship although, clearly, other consulates are not interpreting it in that manner. We had a really long thread going on just this topic.

I don't know what to say because I'm totally shocked. If this becomes a trend, it does not bode well for future NYC applicants, and that's a shame. I hope other consulates do not adopt this interpretation because it is a killer.
User avatar
Em
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:57 am

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby valentinaroan » Mon May 18, 2009 5:55 pm

The story gets worse. I was able to make another appointment, (because, luckily, I also qualify through my Mom), but it isn't until February. Doesn't that seem a bit harsh? I thought that follow up appointments were given sooner? Apparently not. Frankly, though, at this point I don't even think they'll accept my moms papers, based on the scrutiny that I saw today. For example, my gf has the initial 'R' on his B/C, but not on my Mom's B/C or M/C. My gggf's name is also listed as 'Pashal' on my ggf's M/C instead of 'Pasquale' (mentioned all this in other threads).

I just don't know what to do. I'm at a total standstill... At this point I almost feel like giving up.

ETA: Thanks for all the responses. It just doesn't make sense, does it.
valentinaroan
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Connecticut, U.S.A

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby yjg » Mon May 18, 2009 7:04 pm

Yes, I'm also sorry to hear about this. Don't give up yet, though. Can these things be fixed going through your mother's side of the family? Best of luck with this. Keep us posted.
yjg
 
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2007 8:50 pm
Location: Northern California

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby valentinaroan » Mon May 18, 2009 7:16 pm

Never give up, right :D

I've fixed every discrepancy on my mom's application that can be fixed, except for removing the 'R', which would take a court order. The remaining ones can't be fixed, although I do have written proof. Ah, who knows. Well, at least I do have the appointment in February, so at least I can attempt again. Best of luck to you all out there! I hope nobody else finds themselves in this experience.
valentinaroan
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Connecticut, U.S.A

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby Tiffany » Mon May 18, 2009 7:22 pm

I wonder if it depends citizenship officer to citizenship officer. I've never heard of this being a problem before and seem to remember more than one officer being mentioned at the NY consulate. I wonder if all interpretations would be the same.
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby LookingEast » Mon May 18, 2009 9:31 pm

I'm sorry to learn about that unfortunate meeting. But I still think that the law 555 enacted on June 13, 1912 gives the Italian citizenship to you.

Zagnut has pointed out that jure sanguinis Italian citizenship was not presumed to coexist with jure soli citizenship from another country until 1912.

If they are taking this view of Article 7, then they should be taking the view that your GGF did not have Italian citizenship BEFORE the passage of the law but DID have Italian citizenship AFTER the passage of the law. His Italian citizenship then runs from June 13, 1912 to the end of his life.

Article 1 states in the present tense that "The son of a citizen father is a citizen by birth". The conclusion to be drawn is that Article 1 grants Italian citizenship to existing sons of Italian fathers on June 13, 1912 even if those sons did not possess Italian citizenship before the law passed. Article 7 "locks in" the citizenship given to your GGF in Article 1 because it states that loss of the foreign citizenship is not a requirement of keeping Italian citizenship.

This is the first story that I've read about birth before 1912 spoiling jure sanguinis. I believe (and hope) that it does not hold up to analysis. Naturalization before 1912 can be argued to spoil jure sanguinis because the sons may not have a "citizen father" from whom to receive citizenship at the time of enactment.

Art. 1. – E’ cittadino per nascita:

1. il figlio di padre cittadino;
2. il figlio di madre cittadina se il padre è ignoto o non ha la cittadinanza italiana, né quella di altro Stato, ovvero se il figli non segue la cittadinanza del padre straniero secondo la legge dello Stato al quale questi appartiene (2);
3. chi è nato nel [Regno] se entrambi i genitori o sono ignoti o non hanno la cittadinanza italiana, né quella di altro Stato, ovvero se il figlio non segue la cittadinanza dei genitori stranieri secondo la legge dello Stato al quale questi appartengono.
LookingEast
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:48 am
Location: New England, USA

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby Em » Mon May 18, 2009 10:29 pm

valentinaroan wrote:Never give up, right :D

I've fixed every discrepancy on my mom's application that can be fixed, except for removing the 'R', which would take a court order. The remaining ones can't be fixed, although I do have written proof. Ah, who knows. Well, at least I do have the appointment in February, so at least I can attempt again. Best of luck to you all out there! I hope nobody else finds themselves in this experience.

If your mom was born in NYC and is still living, the amendment of her father's name on her bc can be done without a court order. She will need to file for an amendment and present a certified copy of her father's birth certificate. They did that for me without a problem. I also had discrepancies on the marriage certificates (my father's and mine), but they passed when I showed them that all the birth certificates were consistent.

Please don't give up. You may have caught someone on a bad day, and one bad experience does not necessarily mean you'll have trouble the next time.
User avatar
Em
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:57 am

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby CPA21 » Tue May 19, 2009 12:28 am

I have a date in NYC next month and have a similar issue. My ancestor was born in 1910. I do not know what the result will be but I can share my experience so far.

I had a date in NYC April 2008. After that meeting I was given an assignment to correct various documents. One of the discrepancies I was asked to correct was the birth date on my ancestor's marriage and death certificates. The change was correcting the birth day from the 28th to the 23rd of the month. The year was 1910 and remained 1910.

Either there has been a change in policy.

Or the official was having a bad day
CPA21
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:23 pm

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby Tiffany » Tue May 19, 2009 1:15 am

Interesting...
Tiffany
 
Posts: 1685
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:21 pm

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby zagnut » Tue May 19, 2009 2:28 am

I recall nfig1 mentioning someone else applying in New York being turned down who was born many years before 1912.
I recently heard from a reliable source that someone got turned down at the NY consulate because his GGGF had naturalized in 1910, despite this being 25 years after the birth of his son.
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Plan A & B

Postby valentinaroan » Tue May 19, 2009 6:51 am

Thanks for all of the responses! I am glad to know that I did not miss a major law, even if this is all still discouraging! But I really do appreciate everything that all of you have said. I'm pulling myself together, and coming up with Plan A and B. So...

Plan A: We have another appointment in NYC in the end of June (long story; first I was going to apply separately using my mom's line, and my dad and uncle had an appointment on Labor Day. Then we they realized that, they rescheduled them for the end of June, and we never cancelled the appointment.) Unfortunately, I will be in Europe then, and cannot attend it. However, my mom can, so now we are thinking that she could apply on her own, and then after she is recognized I will apply. This is a very real possibility; the only problem is first, Mom is hesitant about obtaining her citizenship, and secondly, seeing how the consulate was yesterday, I'm really not sure the unfixable (however minor I think they are) discrepancies will be acceptable. At the very least though, the officer did confirm that Mom and I are eligible through that line based on the dates. And I still have my new appointment that I made yesterday for Feb. 2010.

Plan B: My paternal grandfather is a resident of NC, and so we thought that maybe we could have him apply in Philly first (they are more lenient, right?), hoping that they do not interpret the 1912 law the same, and then after my gf is recognized, my Dad and uncle and (myself, in my mothers line does not pan out) could re apply in NYC, as the sons of a passport carrying citizen of Italy.

The thing is, I understand if naturalizing before 1912 ends the chain, my gggf never naturalized. So wouldn't that mean that he passed on the citizenship? Ah, logic :wink:

Oh, and Em, my Mom could amend her B/C, and add the 'R' into her fathers name. But my gf has never used it on on any other document, so she is, at least right now, refusing to do it. :(

Think these ideas are worth a shot?
valentinaroan
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 8:50 pm
Location: Connecticut, U.S.A

Re: NYC Consulate Denial

Postby zagnut » Tue May 19, 2009 9:28 am

The thing is, I understand if naturalizing before 1912 ends the chain, my gggf never naturalized. So wouldn't that mean that he passed on the citizenship? Ah, logic

No, they aren't saying GGGF naturalizing prior to 1912 is the problem. They are saying GGF being born in the US prior to 1912 is the problem. They are saying that prior to the 1912 law Article 7, a person born with US citizenship jure soli could not simultaneously hold Italian citizenship jure sanguinis.
Art. 7.
– Salvo speciali disposizioni da stipulare con trattati internazionali il cittadino
italiano nato e residente in uno stato estero, dal quale sia ritenuto proprio cittadino
per nascita, conserva la cittadinanza italiana, ma divenuto maggiorenne o
emancipato, può rinunziarvi
zagnut
 
Posts: 911
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:48 am

Next

Return to Embassies and Consulates

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests