Italian citizenship for everyone?

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Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Davide » Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:57 pm

The Italian law is clear. If there is a direct unbroken line from the original Italian ancestor you too can be an Italian citizen. This, however, is not the general rule throughout the European Union. In almost all countries in the E.U. citizenship through the blood line is extended only to the second generation. Even in Italy, questions have been raised in Parliament concerning citizenship for people who claim citizenship through great, great grandfathers and beyond. Often, according to some members of Parliament, people who are seeking recognition of Italian citizenship, have never been to Italy, many don't speak Italian, frequently they know very little about life in Italy, and often don't even have a "sentimental" connection to Italy. Often, the reasons for seeking recognition of Italian citizenship has more to do with the economic, social (free heath care) and political advantages of being able to live and work in a country of the European Union, (not necessarily Italy) than being a citizen of Italy and contributing to the well being of Italia.

In my case, I was born in the USA. I was recognized an Italian citizen through my Italian grandfather, I speak Italian, have studied her history, understand Italian politics and vote in Italian elections. I go to Italy every 3 or 4 months and plan to live in Italy for the rest of my life. Although each person's reasons for seeking Italian citizenship is different, if the question were put to a referendum on an Italian ballot, I would vote to extend citizenship recognition only to the second generation. I wonder what others think?
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Elia » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:57 pm

I was personally astounded that the Italian citizenship law is so generous and comprehensive and delighted that it took me in. The reason for this is the same as the one Davide gives. Like many americans of Italian origin and of the first and second generations who come out of the great immigration, I was brought up with a powerful sense of ethnic identity. I can honestly say that beside being instilled wsith American patriotism I was also given an abiding love for Italy and all things Italian. In those days to anyone who asked any one of us what nationality we belonged to we would quickly and proudly respond: "I'm Italian" I knew the comune of origin of my grandparents and the names of relatives and I heard their nineteenth century dialect spoken nearlyh evdery day as a child. I later learned proper Italian and have used that language exclusively in all my visits to the consulate. However, I do not agree with Davide that being embued with Italian culture must be a requirement. The Italians feel that they should recongize the great diaspora that Italy has sent out all over the world. Howeverk, at the same time the Italian government should make evey effort to reconnect these sons and daughtrers of Italy with their ancestral homeland by establishing centers of Italian languagfe and culture everywhere. I think it would be of immense advantage for Italy to have an actively engaged dispora all over the world. Especially now with the advancing economic union in Europe, the fudnamental source of a nation's identity and influence is cultural and linguistic more than political. And in terms of culture Italy certainly should be seen as a superpower.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:08 am

I assume that Italy is being so overrun by Muslims they welcome actual Italians back just to put things back in balance. Also, look at a guy like me. I'm 58 years old. When I get my Italian citizenship you know what I'm going to do with it? Spend the money I made in America in Italy. I'd be good for Italy.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby zagnut » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:11 am

[quote]I assume that Italy is being so overrun by Muslims they welcome actual Italians back just to put things back in balance.[/quote]
More racists won't make Italy more balanced. She's got more than enough already.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby zagnut » Sat Aug 29, 2009 3:15 am

"I assume that Italy is being so overrun by Muslims they welcome actual Italians back just to put things back in balance."
More racists won't make Italy more balanced. She's got more than enough already.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:30 am

That's the problem with the world today. If you have any problem with allowing a country to lose it's entire cultural base there's always some jackass who'll jump out of the woodwork and scream "racist" hoping that will convince someone of something. Doesn't work with me but keep trying. I mean, after all, who needs Italian culture, really? And look how willing the muslim world is to accept change :-)
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Em » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:10 am

Leaving the question of Muslims aside, I don't see any evidence that Italy is thrilled to get "actual Italians" back. The consulates have been burdened with applications from people with only tenuous connections to Italy, people who have never visited the country and can't speak the language. Although I am a dual citizen with a 100 percent Italian line, I recognize that as an Italian-American, I am more American than Italian; and my recent visits to Italy convince me that Italy today is not the Italy of my grandparents. But it is the Italy of my grandparents that many Italian-Americans think of when they think of Italy.

Despite my Italian passport, in Italy I am always recognized as an American, and quite frankly, I think many Italians are getting tired of their open-arms policy, which allows those like me to acquire Italian citizenship. This attitude is increasingly demonstrated at the consulates, where recent applicants have faced frustrating delays, demands for additional documentation, requirements to amend even minor discrepancies, etc.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Sat Aug 29, 2009 9:43 am

Well, Italy is certainly not doing what they're doing, ie inviting people of Italian heritage back, for NO reason. It certainly is true however that Italy today (at least as much of it as I have seen) is not the Italy of yesteryear and Americans will feel 100% American when visiting Italy. Oddly, most Americans I know are wondering what it means to be American in America these days. Remember, the America of today is a FAR cry from the America I grew up in too.

Cultures and the genetic base of nations in Europe (and America) are changing rapidly and especially as a former professional anthropologist I don't think it's a good thing. Meanwhile, countries that are flooding European countries (and America) with their people tend to have very closed door immigration policies. Some can see how this plays out long term and some can't. It's frustrating.

You know, about a year ago I did a "cheek-swab" genetics test. What I learned was that where my parents came from is exactly where my genetic lines came from for a couple of thousand years. Isn't that interesting? Try this test in Italy a few generations from now and see what results you get.

But you're right. We should leave name-calling behind here because one will call those who can see the big picture "racist" while those being called racists will view the others as imbeciles and it will just break down into a pointless name-calling session. I'd have suggested that the board moderator have reprimanded the person who dismissed me as a racist for thinking Italy might object to becoming yet another muslim country.
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100%

Postby Carl » Sat Aug 29, 2009 10:21 am

Em,

By the way, when you refer to your "100 percent Italian line" you obviously mean as regards the consulate and their view today. What is thought of as "Italy" proper today is obviously a modern political construct. The culture area that has defined "Italy" through time is not what it is today. For example, Lidia Bastianich, the chef and tv cooking show star: Here's where she's from:

"Lidia Matticchio Bastianich was born on February 21, 1947, in the city of Pola, Istria (present-day Pula in Istria County, Croatia). Istria had been awarded to Italy after World War I. Later, after World War II, Istria was ceded to the then-recently created Yugoslavia by the terms of the Treaty of Peace with Italy, 1947. This occurred just eleven days before Lidia's birth. "

(From Wikipedia)

Now imagine you work back to the center of the Roman Empire.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Em » Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:02 pm

Just to clarify, when I said "100 percent Italian line" I meant that all my four grandparents were born in Italy of Italian parents. This is in sharp contrast to many applicants who can trace their heritage to an Italian great great grandfather who married an Irish woman, and whose children also married non-Italians. According to Italian citizenship law, they are citizens, despite the fact that their Italian heritage is substantially diluted.

Honestly, I don't think Italy is inviting anyone back. The citizenship law of 1912 was likely designed to enable the children of Italians who were forced to emigrate to return to the homeland. I doubt the framers of that law envisioned the 1992 law permitting dual citizenship, a law which opened the door to foreigners many generations removed from Italy. You're right; the cultures of the world are changing, but I think that this change is inevitable. As long a people in economically developed countries are willing to hire foreign workers--usually off the book and at substandard wages--people living in poverty will find a way to those job.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:17 pm

"You're right; the cultures of the world are changing"

This is the wrong place to discuss this, so we shouldn't, but this is MAJOR. The greatest cultures ever developed are being systematically destroyed. Fast!

"but I think that this change is inevitable."

Well, like I said, I had my genetics tested and for a couple of thousand years, nobody had moved from that little Mediterranean area my people were from. Now, in one generation, all of Europe is being destroyed, America is being destroyed, Canada is being destroyed, and the nations from which the hoards are coming refuse to allow anyone in! See what happens to you if, for example, you're a Guatemalan caught illegally in Mexico.

Oh! The guy who charged racism? Imagine not knowing that Albanian muslims, for example, are of the same "race" as Italians? Back to school, eh? And we're not talking college.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby zagnut » Sat Aug 29, 2009 11:58 pm

Again, those of us who have lived in Italy for years don't need any more proponents of racial purity and the genetically-superior master race here in Italy. We already have Lega Nord and the Padanians. Please stay in the US with the Klan and Nazis- we have enough Fasciste here already.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Sun Aug 30, 2009 7:52 am

Boy, are you stupid. There's no use trying to enlighten you. Unless, of course, you yourself are one of the too many muslims living in Europe, diluting the great cultures of Europe, acting as if those cultures are meaningless and all that's important is that someone take care of you because you and yours sure can't take care of yourselves in the countries you've established.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby zagnut » Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:59 am

"Unless, of course, you yourself are one of the too many muslims living in Europe, diluting the great cultures of Europe, acting as if those cultures are meaningless and all that's important is that someone take care of you because you and yours sure can't take care of yourselves in the countries you've established"
Got it- you hate Muslims.

There are still people living here in Italy who remember the last time people who think like you were in power. Jews were rounded up and shipped to concentration camps. People who helped hide Jews were shot. It was only 66 years ago, and Italians haven't forgotten (excluding Lega Nord and Alleanza Nazionale types). Spread your hatred somewhere else- Italy doesn't want it.
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Re: Italian citizenship for everyone?

Postby Carl » Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:06 am

Listen: Stop bothering me. There is no way you'll ever wrap your simple mind around the value of the cultures being destroyed by the massive immigration of those who made their own countries unlivable and if you want me to try to educate you, there will be a pretty hefty fee. But we hear this in the States all the time. When someone wants to argue but is too stupid to have anything of value to say they scream "Racist" time and time again.

Anyway, like I said, if it's an education you're looking for I have a paypal account and I charge by the hour.
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