Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Are you eligible for Italian Citizenship jure sanguinis?

Moderator: Daniel

Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby papagiorgio » Tue Nov 16, 2010 11:09 am

Apologies if this has already been answered, each case seems slightly different.

My mother's father's father was born in Italy in 1855 (both of his parents were Italian citizens)
My mother's father was born in Italy in 1885 (his father at the time was still Italian citizen)
Both my mother's father and his father arrived in the US in the 1890s
My mother's father's father became a naturalized citizen in 1900, renouncing his Italian citizenship. At this time my mother's father also became a citizen by virtue of his father's naturalization. My mother's father, as a minor, would not have renounced his Italian citizenship in this process.
My mother was born in 1933 in Italy. Her mother was an Italian citizen, and her father at this time was an US citizen who had not renounced his Italian citizenship
My mother came to the US in 1947, as a derivative citizen, as her father was a US citizen. She would not have needed to renounce her Italian citizenship.
I was born in 1960.

Do I qualify for Italian citizenship though my mother?

Thanks for any help.
papagiorgio
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby uwlaw » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:26 pm

Prior to 1983, Italian Citizenship Law provided that if a father living abroad lost his Italian citizenship, and he had children (under 21) living with him at the time, and those children acquired a foreign citizenship, those children likewise lost their Italian citizenship. In this sense, the citizenship of the children "followed" that of their father, and there was no need for the children to renounce their Italian citizenship in order to lose it.

In light of this, if your grandfather was living with your great-grandfather in the US while your grandfather was under age 21, your great-grandfather lost his Italian citizenship, and your grandfather acquired US citizenship, your grandfather would have likewise lost his Italian citizenship.

I note, however, that your mother was born in Italy. Was your grandfather was living there at the time? Did he live there after your mother's birth (with your mother)? If he lived in Italy for two years (whether prior to your mother's birth, afterwards while she was still a minor, or any combination of the two), he would have automatically regained his Italian citizenship, and both he and she would be dual citizens (as would you). See Citizenship Law of 1912, Article 9(3).
User avatar
uwlaw
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:07 pm

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby papagiorgio » Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:38 am

Thanks for your response.

As far as I can tell, my grandfather returned to Italy 3 times. The first was around 1911-1913, when he got married and stayed for the birth of two children - one died shortly after birth, the other 5 years later. His second trip was around 1923-1927, for the conception (or so I am told) and births, in 1924 and 1926, of two more children, both of whom are still living. His final trip to Italy was around 1932-1933, for the conception/birth of my mother. Most of this information is anecdotal, I have his Ellis Island records only for his original trip to the US in 1899, and his return in 1913. It seems like my best hope would be to document his stay during the 1920's.

So now I have a few more questions:
*must the 2 years of residency be continuous?
*must it have occurred after 1912 (when the law was written)?
*does anyone have an english version of the Citizenship Law of 1912 - I haven't found one via google and I am still learning Italian.
does anyone have suggestions on how to document Italian residency? One idea that is occurring to me is to get the original birth certificates (certificato di nascita) and see if my grandfather was the reporting party for the births of my mother or her siblings. I have seen this on earlier birth certificates, I'm not sure if it was done during this timeframe. Any other suggestions?

Thanks again for any help.
papagiorgio
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby lou07 » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:06 pm

Why dont you apply through your mother? No need to bring in her father or mother or GGF GGM. You should be able to get her birth certificate from Italy. If she never renounced her citizenship or naturalized as US citizen, and you were born after 1-1-48, there should be no problem. There is no need to bring in the citizenship status of anyone else but your mother.
lou07
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:19 pm

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby papagiorgio » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:23 pm

Are you saying that my mother, born in Italy (in 1933) to a mother who was an Italian citizen, would have Italian citizenship regardless of the status of her father? I didn't think that just because she was born in Italy she could claim Italian citizenship. My mother was never naturalized as a US citizen, but was recognized as one (as the child of a US citizen) after moving to the US in 1947, and had a US passport.
papagiorgio
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:27 am

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby uwlaw » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:59 pm

It does appear as if the 1923-1927 period would be the most productive, as it was clearly in excess of two years. Plus, it was after he lost his Italian citizenship in 1900, so it was a period during which he could have reclaimed his citizenship. Do you know the comune in which he lived during that period? I've never looked into "residency" records, as compared to birth/marriage/death records at the comune level, so can't help you there. But perhaps someone else has. Perhaps you could prove up your case through Ellis Island records, but I would imagine this woulc be more of a challenge, as the Consulate may be more sceptical of those.

The text of the law of 1912 is unclear as to whether the two-year period of residency must be continuous (see Article 9(3)), but I would venture a guess that it likely would need to be, as the purpose is presumably ensure that the person is "recommitting" to Italy. Here's a copy of the 1912 Citizenship Law in English:
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0VWXmxCcnz0C&lpg=PR13&ots=azTgthFhhs&dq=1912%20italian%20citizenship%20law&pg=PA363#v=onepage&q&f=false

Finally, with regard to Lou's comment, it is my understanding that you are, in fact, trying to apply through your mother. The relevant question, however, is whether she was an Italian citizen. Since she was born in 1933 (prior to enactment of the Italian Constitution), her mother was not able to pass citizenship to her -- at least as the law is presently being interpreted by the government. See Article 1 of the 1912 Citizenship Law. As such, you would need to show that her father was a citizen at the time of her birth -- or that he regained his citizenship while she was living with him and still a minor. That said, it would be interesting for you to attempt to get a copy of her birth certificate from her comune (if you haven't yet done so), as you could see whether there was any indication on it as to the doubtful status of her father's citizenship or her own. If it is 'clean' -- meaning that it simply shows she was born to two Italian citizens -- perhaps you can assume that your grandfather regained his citizenship and apply on that basis as Lou suggests. Then again, the reason for this may not be that he regained his citizenship, but that he never reported the loss to his comune.
User avatar
uwlaw
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:07 pm

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby lou07 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:21 pm

I dont know the actual law, but I would think if you are born in Italy, you would be an Italian. Like the U.S.A. perhaps??
lou07
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:19 pm

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby lou07 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:41 pm

Take a look at the Jus Sanguinis information sheet (SF consulate) online. There are several ways to gain citizenship 1 though 5. Look at #2 in your situation. It states this:

2. Your mother was born in Italy and was an Italian citizen at the time of your birth. You were born after January 1, 1948 and you have never renounced your right to Italian citizenship.

Thats it, If your mom was born there, just get her Italian birth certificate from the town she was born in. You dont have to say anything about your grandfather being a US citizen. As long as your mom was an italian citizen, then came to this country you should be fine.
lou07
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:19 pm

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby lou07 » Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:48 pm

One more thing. A comment on unlaw's post. When I applied, all I had was my great grandparents birth certificates from Italy (My GGF was the "so-called" citizen). Who would know if his parents were not Italian Citizens????? All I had, or anybody would have is the birth record. I dont know anything further back than my GGF's birth. Would your moms Italian birth certificate indicate that your grandmother wasnt an Italian citizen?? If she does have an Italian birth record, just go with that and dont worry about anything else.
lou07
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:19 pm

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby uwlaw » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:45 pm

Citizenship in Italy is determined by virtue of jure sanguinis (by right of blood), not jure soli (by right of birthplace) as in the US. The US is one of the only major industrialized nations that grants citizenship solely by virtue of birth within the country. This is a big point of political discussion right now in the US, as it is in Italy, for very different reasons.

This means that being born in Italy, without more, doesn't give you Italian citizenship. There are a few narrow exceptions to this (such as where the child could otherwise not be a citizen of any country whatsoever), but these are rare. If a child was born in Italy prior to 1948 and their father wasn't a citizen, or if they were born in Italy on or after 1948 and at least one of their parents weren't a citizen, they could not register their births with the commune as an Italian citizen. (See Art. 4 of the Civil Code of 1865, Art. 1 of the Citizenship Law of 1912, Art. 1 of the Citizenship Law of 1992). Lou, the fact that your GGF had a birth record at the comune indicates that the registrar at the comune was satisfied that his father was a citizen at the time of his birth.

All that said, I agree that Papagiorgio should obtain a copy of his mother's birth certificate. As indicated in my earlier posts, such a record could very well could exist as her father may have regained his Italian citizenship either before or after her birth (if he reacquired his Italian citizenship after her birth, then the comune would have registered her birth after-the-fact, as it does for those who are just now having their citizenships recognized).

By the way, Papagiorgio, in response to one of your earlier questions, the Civil Code of 1865 did not allow a prior citizen who had lost citizenship by virtue or naturalizing abroad to then regain their Italian citizenship unless they renounced their non-Italian citizenship. This was changed in the citizenship law of 1912, which allowed prior citizens to regain without the necessity of renouncing the non-Italian citizenship, as long as they lived in Italy for two years. Thus, I would not expect that any time prior to 1912 would count toward the two-year requirement.
User avatar
uwlaw
 
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:07 pm

Re: Do I qualify? Derivative citizenship

Postby lou07 » Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:58 pm

Unlaw, thanks for the clarification.
lou07
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:19 pm


Return to Qualifying

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron